Skip/reduce the Story and leveling for alt Characters please!

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first off: Please upvote if you like this post or if you like this discussion.

I get it the idea of leveling is to learn the character and get the feeling of a an achievement :frowning:
For some people it might feel like an achievement but for me not at all.

Dont get me wrong i think playing the story in Last Epoch was fun.
However doing it again and again and again to be able to play more characters feels like a chore just like it does in POE. Atleast in POE your higher level when you reach endgame.

The benefits (for me) of giving alts or boosting alts to a certain area to get faster to endgame are:

**1. Fun. I like games to be fun and keep doing the story over and over is just boring.
The fun is in the endgame and trying different builds and classes. The game doesnt let me do that easily.
So what happends? I quit. Just like in POE after leveling 1 or two characters. I actually do play long with them but i would play your game way longer if i could play more classes without leveling or with less leveling after getting 1 main to endgame.
I dont want games to feel like its a job. I play games to have fun. Just like in jobs there is this big meh side in your job you have to do over and over until you get to the fun part. Its normal in a job to have that but i keep wondering why my precious time has to be put in leveling so many hours just to having fun afterwards. We live one life so time is precious. If there were more fun things to do in connection with endgame it would be different. Or if the story was not that time consuming it would be different aswell. But it is.

I have a job so i can pay for games like this. I also have a little kid so i dont have all the time of the world. Before that i actually did had all the time of the world but even then i hated leveling over and over just to have some more fun with other classes. Please make it more easy to enjoy multiple characters. It would make this game so much more accessible for people that have less time and people who like to try out things.
I tried your game and saw some nice skills so i tried Druid because it is different. I just got to endgame but i actually saw nice videos of Necromancers so i actually want to try that one out instead of my Druid. Suprise suprise ā€¦ i have to put hours and hours of leveling in AGAIN if i want to have FUNstrong text .

The benefit of pleasing all types of players would be a healthier game. People that have jobs have more money to spend. I spend tons of money in POE just to support them. I understand that not everybody wants to do that and thats oke. I had the money for it and decided to support them for the 1000ā€™s of hours i enjoyed playing. I would even played way more hours if the leveling wouldnt be such a boring chore.

I want to do the same in Last Epoch but iam tired of rushing trought the story just to be done with it so i can enjoy min maxing my character in endgame. Why do devs think the story is that good that people want to play it over and over? Is it just the fact that it needs to cost time so you feel more value of reaching a certain point with your char and finally enjoy the game? I think it is a bad habit of designing this genre.
There is enough proof that players tend to burn-out fast on these type of games. Iam not saying that leveling is they only problem but for me it is a big one and for friends of mine aswell.

I would have tried tons of different wacky builds to look for options to play the game in uniques ways. ā€œThe game and the genre simply wont let me having this fun unless ill cut my child or jobā€. The problem is that i love the genre to much so i keep it to 1 or to characters and just cant explore all the other fun stuff/classes that Last Epoch got. So eventually i burn out on my characters and quit the game probably which i dont want.

Sometimes it feels like game devs forget that gaming is about having fun in certain areas.
They almost all start the leveling proces really slow and boring and the further you go the more fun you have. Why not having instant fun? Just give the option to not having to level again after 1 story finish or make it faster with shortcuts, place a portal which get you to 80% of the story if the player. wants to. there are enough options.

Anyways up to point 2.

2. Time.
I actually mentioned this point above here so ill keep it short this time.
Time is money.
Respect the the fact that everybody has 1 life. Give the option to choose how they want to play the game so your game is actually worth my time. Especially in the longterm.

3. The benefits for Last Epoch and the company.

  1. More players will probably get the game when they know you can easily get multiple characters, because they know that means more fun in the game. My friends would get the game atleast. They got jobs aswell so time is valuable aswell.

  2. Less burn-outs. Being able to switch between characters prevents burn-outs.

3. Potentially more creativity.
There might be less meta and more creativity since it is easier to try something else.
Now it is more important for me to be sure my character actually can kill monsters so i keep having fun. I dont like to copy builds but i did this time because it safes time and it makes sure i can enjoy your endgame content. If i screw up with exploring like i did, i get punished for it and it costs me time to level back up againā€¦so better safe then sorry. This is a shame in my opinion.

Iam not saying this system is wrong but the amount of punishing things your system got really demotivates me to keep investing time in this game.
When you die you lose progress. When you want a different skill you lose progress.
WHen you fail a big endgame boss, you get punished. When i want to change my primaire skill tree it costs a lot of money which is punishing for people that want to try out thingsā€¦

And suprise suprise ā€¦ they all cost a lot of time. I actually do like some hardcore punishing ideas this game has but at the same time i think there should be a better balance.
There should be a more softcore option so people can explore and so people with less time or less WILL to spend a lot of time before actually enjoying the endgame or enjoying tinkering build ideas. In Path of exile i can atleast do this somewhat in POB and you have orb of regrets currency which isnt hard to get (and you can buy it of other players) so you dont have to spend the time grinding them and instend spending time in the fun areas.

4. Trying out is getting punished.
After trying out druid in endgame for a while i actually want to have a Necro as a main.
Ill get punished for that. I tried some wered combinations. I get punished for that because it doesnt work.

In some degree the player should be punished so the choices stay meaningfull.
I think this game over did it however in this aspect.
Dont you want as much players possible to keep motivated to play your game and even more players to buy it? If yes then i think something has to change. Especially since this game isnt free to play. Hence even if it was f2p, my opinion still is that having to play a long story over and over isnt needed and isnt fun.

Dont forget btw that people with jobs got money. You might get more of there money to keep this game alive for many years to come if you target them aswell. Now it looks like you only target the more Hardcore type player.

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I have played Diablo 2 & 3, Torchlight 1 & 2, Path of Exile, Sacred 1 & 2, Grim Dawn, Titan Quest, Bastion, Divine Divinity & Beyond Divinity, Dungeon Siege 1 & 2, The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing, Silverfall, and even Minecraft Dungeons.

You know what this long list of ARPGs has in common? Zero way to skip levelling alt characters. Why should Last Epoch be any different? Especially when I, and likely many others, actually enjoy going through the game again with alts?

Just my thoughts on the matter.

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The titles you mentioned i all played aswell. Except for mine craft and helsing.
They are way different in how they are designed and it took way longer to make those games.

You still have the option to level every character if you want. Just give me the option to skip it after reaching endgame with 1 characterā€¦

I assume you have all the time of the world to keep enjoying video games even with a full time job and/or kids. I do respect your opinion though. I just disagree. It wouldnt hurt you if you could choose not to do it or to do it right?

Why would they change it? Because i dont think the story they got is not fun enought to replay that much.
Diablo 3 whas really easy to level btw.

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I would also like any mechanic that boost/speeds up the process of leveling new characters.

But it should be something you earn or unlock for certain milestones.

Well that is incorrect. Grim Dawn has in one of the best and alt friendly systems. Account bound Reputation Boosts, Experience Potions and the ability to unlock all Quest and Story rewards for lower difficulties.

Grim Dawn has one of the best systems IMO, since you have many options to approach new chars, you can try a char out and just play normal or if you already have a good build in mind you can challenge yourself and try Elite or Ultimate from the get-go, with all that acoount bound stuff.

Marvel Heroes also had a good alt system, where you would unlock an account wide exp bonus, depending on the number of chars you did bring to max level.(Something similar could be implemented in LE, mabye not reaching max level but reaching certain other milestones).

I really donā€™t mind which system, but I would like any kind of system that helps with new chars.

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Yeah i would really love something like that in Last Epoch.
If they only would copy that system it would make my day already.

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Iā€™ve played a lot of alts in GD and never found the xp potions, so I guess I canā€™t comment on that. But one exception doesnā€™t make the rule. For a lot of people, half the experience in an ARPG is experiencing leveling alt characters. Skipping that will ruin the fun these people have with the game.

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LE works a little bit different, so i think we need some variation on similar systems. Just a plain exp boost, wonā€™t save you from running the story over and over again, especially for all the passive points and idol slots.

Some kind of Merit similar to the Grim Dawn one, where you have to buy a semi-expensive account bound item to unlock all the story rewards could work. This way gold will get alot mroe value too.

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To be honest, LE works a lot like the way PoE does, so skipping isnā€™t something that could be put into the game very easily.

Besides, with the way the game is designed, there could be a ton of content added to the main story experience, considering it revolves around time travel. They could add a huge amount of variety to the levelling experience, something all other ARPGs lack. Iā€™d be very happy with that.

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Lots of people actually donā€™t like this aswell. World of warcraft is a good example of it despite it being an MMO. This is why instant level 100 boosts came into life.

Beside that, the fact that a group of people do like it because of the story experience doesnt mean the ā€œminorā€ group of people with jobs and kids that played the games that made this genre still want to enjoy these kind of games should not be a reason to not give the option to do it.

Also You didnt answered me about the big difference in the approach. of those games.
The story was basicly all those games had. Now the story is more like beside being fun it also is sort of an intro into the endgame. Which again most games you mention dont even have.

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Thats why i tend to find the newer RPG storys boring real fast.
Ill would perfer more options to level aswell. And if not a quicker way for the players that want to.

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Ok, here a sumamry in case you are even interested in that:
Grim Dawn Experience Potions: Obtainable form the Malmouth Resistance Faction/Ashes Of Malmouth Expansion) on the revered reputation level. Cost 40K Iron Bits. It is account bound, so canā€™t be traded or dropped, but can be put into the shared stash.

Merits can be bought from a Vendor in the Conclave of the Three(Forgotten Gods Expansion)
You can buy one on Elite difficulty to unlock all normal rewards for another chars, or buy one on Ultimate and unlock all Normal # Elite rewards.

Mandates are account bound consumables that boost reputation for other chars of factions that you already brought to max reputation with another character

Well i think the main point here would be, to have a choice, either play story content or just go straight into MoF(low level version), or any other kind of system and level from there.
I donā€™t want a system where you instantly get a lvl 55 char ready for MoF, i still want to play my char from level 1, just give me options to fasten that process.

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Also You didnt answered me about the big difference in the approach. of those games.

Besides, with the way the game is designed, there could be a ton of content added to the main story experience, considering it revolves around time travel. They could add a huge amount of variety to the levelling experience, something all other ARPGs lack.

That kinda answers it, I think. Time travel opens a huge amount of potential, and Iā€™m hoping they take advantage of that fact.

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Lets hope so. But what is you opinion of the big difference in approach prior to the old Gold Rpgs? The focus nowadays is different since there is endgame were they focus on now aswell instead of the whole game being a story more or less while improving your character.

For me Last Epoch is fun but in a whoooole idifferent ball game compared to diablo.
Story wise, the music they use especially in diablo 1 /2 the grittyness. Because of this i prefer to have the option to do it faster or skip it entirely.

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You have some good points, I too would like to see an alternative leveling path for alts (kind of like adventure mode from d3). Sounds like a nice summary of that would be:

  • new alt leveling path would be in the ā€˜end of timeā€™ (so we canā€™t get there till the alt is ~lvl 25)
  • have this new leveling path open when we either finish the story or reach X level with a character
  • limit char growth to ~lvl 55, at which point they then move over to monoliths
  • allow us to get all the bonus skill points and idol slots
  • xp and item drop rates could be drastically different in these leveling paths, without affecting the main storyline.

I wonder if they could call it something like mini-monoliths?

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Very good summary, basically a watered down version of monolith of something similar. Just random generated tilests.

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D3 also allows you to skip the campaign (with itā€™s writing & plot for 3-year olds) on subsequent characters & level up in adventure mode.

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True, but adventure mode is simply the campaign maps playable out of order.

And to be honest, D3 isnā€™t a very good ARPG in my opinion. Once youā€™ve levelled a character up, you have access to all skills and can swap playstyles instantly with a bit of gear changing. Takes all the fun out of the game for me.

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I do not agree with the OP, but it would be great to have a testing tool. Like, make a separate mode (similar to SSF and hardcore options) which will create temporary character - like 3-5 hours and it would delete itself. That would be much better option, even more than the PoB for Path of Exile. Also, that character would have no ability to trade items and there would be vendors for everything (with 0 costs). Literally, in-built build tester. In that time, it should be possible to see if the build works or not. Just my two cents here.

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Right? We should always be shadows from others, never to do anything that wasnā€™t done before. :100: And as mentioned, Grim Dawn has it.

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Yep to many people and companies play it safe or stay in the shadows of others which makes things boring and stale in the future.
Ofcourse it is important to keep some foundations but not experimenting is not something i like. By ā€œbending the rules or not following them in every mannerā€ new things are getting created sometimes.