Currency to respec passives and mastery

[Heavy]

@meesterg

Still disagree about the perspective you guys seem to have on beginners though.

It gets tiring, but can we please try to not use any form of generalization for “all the community testers”.
Just because some of them that are active here on the discussion have a very similar opinion about this very topic, does not mean, all of them share the same “perspective”

Anyway back to the discussion

@meesterg

You just say i disagree because of … … without saying why or why not it might be beneficial for other type of players.

I can only speak for me here, but just because something is “easier” (like respeccing a mastery in this example), does not make it “better” or “beneficial”.
I already stated this in your other thread about respeccing is too punishing.
The opinion i have about respeccing skills and not being able to respec mastery was exactly the same, as it is now. I swear.

Just being a “new player” does not make things “better” if they are easier. Even beginners like choices that matter.
You speak a little bit, like you are speaking on behalf of every beginner player. Please just don’t do this, the forum is here to state your personal opinion about a topic and then there will come in more people with potetnially similar or completely different opinions discussion the topic.

@meesterg

That is your opinion Heavy so stating that it is a weak argument is a strange reaction.
It is his opinion just like it is yours.

I did state that this is a weak argument in my opinion, if this holds true or not, should be decided by everyone themselves.

Having a game system in place, but “ignoring” it, not using it at all is not an option for me.
As i already said, it takes away alot of the immersion and character progression feeling.

@meesterg

So because you have the option to actually respec the weight isnt there anymore because you know others can?

It’s not mainly because “others” can, but because it is generally possible, that’s why i dislike this kind of system.

@meesterg

It does feel like you guys try to shut down my opinion.

I can confidently say, that none of the other community testers ever did shut down or devalue anyone’s opinion, ever.

All we do is stating our own opinion, which sometiems is the same, sometimes it’s not.

@meesterg

Iam sad in that manner that i see way less discussions with non community testers aswell.

Some of the community testers, me included are very active on the forums, that’s a blessing and a curse, i might say.
But i think, at least in this discussion here, there were already a few other people that stated their opinion, which is good.

On that note, i would be really glad if we and all other attendees of this discussion could just stop talking about any Community Tester stuff, because that stuff gets boring. If you feel like you have something to say about that topic feel free to open up a discussion about community testers and that you feel like they do not represent you as a player. I am sure some of the other community testers are happy to expound their “perspective”.
(Or maybe EHG will do a statement)
I will no longer respond to anything that related to community testers in here.

Now let’s return to the discussion. Thank you.

BTW, FYI, you can quote parts from someone’s post, or just “reply” to them, don’t always quote their whole post, that makes your posts very confusing and large.

[meesterg]

@Jahran

Oh boy, another “I don’t like this in this game and therefore the devs must change this” post. Every post that goes for that direction becomes a gladiator arena.
I agree that during the Beta they could make all respect (skill points, passive points, mastery choice) to be free, but when the game goes live/online, it should be the way we currently have.

Yep its an arena and i saw more posts going this way of other people. So i guess something in my statement must hold some truth.

[meesterg]

@Shrukn

My feedback is players should be allowed to respec their Mastery if they choose at a certain cost -maybe a rare item consumable book that can allow a respec

I like to play and progress a character but I also like to completely respec a potentially failed character which I simply dont want to delete and can potentially ‘fix’ them.

Im playing Poe Heist, my second character has had a complete respec 4 times now to totally different builds. I would of already quit the league if I had to reroll 4 times to test. Some builds need large amounts of passive points to function well or feel good to play

The thing is adding in a Mastery respec doesnt actually harm anyone else, you either use it or ignore it im not seeing the issue however it can be demotivating as hell to know you potentially picked and invested a large amount of time into the ‘wrong choice’ and it could be fixed quite easily at the cost of once again your own time from farming

I agree i dont see the issue aswell for people who dont want it. They still got the choice to not do it.

[meesterg]

@leydun

@CaiusMartius

I don’t think the ‘clique’ comment is really grounded. You can certainly feel otherwise but as another perspective from someone who ISN’T a community tester, I generally don’t feel this way.

I shouldn’t generalize, and I apologize for that. It’s certainly not all Community Testers, and certainly not only them. But I do stand by the feeling of cliqueyness sometimes.

We feel the same about that. I shouldnt generalize however aswell.

[Llama8]

There’s no need to get personal. Why don’t you take a bit of a break from this thread.

[Tibone]

I have been really hesitant about responding to threads lately. Mostly because for some reason people with the community tester tag seem to be getting a lot of hate for no reason.

There are those think us to be of a hive mind. This can be further from the case. There have been times were I will have a vastly different opinion than those that are also part of the program. I feel a lot of the lashing out it completely unwarranted.

That being said. A major part of the vision that EHG has for Last Epoch is class identity. While the masteries are subclasses that are essentially their own class. In “my” opinion freely swapping out masteries would lose the flavor and importance of the class choice.

In any game with classes you can’t make one class and then swap that class to something else. That would require you to start as that class.

Ofc you can make an argument of they could have a penalty or a cost bu then there would be people who think that cost would be too much. Then where would that end?

What is the current system hurting? Yeah qol is nice sometimes. But people are also want things for little investment.

I believe investment is what ties you to that character. I play a varying amount working 2 jobs a family yt channel and other business ventures. So I like qol sometimes.

Hot swapping masteries I think would kind of lose a bit of the identity.

[Sarno]

Closing thread for 24 hours.

[Shrukn]

@Bankaikiller

Same goes on the other side. if you could just respect classes at will, what would be the point of even having mastery classes?

‘Rare item consumable drop’

What are you going to do with your nerfed bird build? delete them? leave them to rot?

Personally I don’t care about what others do, if you want to spend 10 hours rerolling then you can. I would prefer to do other things if possible

[Jerle]

I think we are conflating different ideas.

Releveling a new character is not the only way to preserve build identity. I absolutely think build identity is core to an ARPG experience that doesnt steer too much to the acardy side (aka D3). But I also agree with OP in that time cost (i.e. relevelling a character) is not the only way to impose cost in build alteration. Other resources, such as gold cost (if gold remains of value), item cost, etc can all be viable ways to preserve build identity.

The only question is how “cheap” is this currency that OP has in mind? For example, if there is a token that allows a full respec of the character including mastery for 2mil gold, would OP be happy with that? Or he will complain that he can probably level 2 - 3 new chracters to endgame in the time required to farm 2mil gold?

[Heavy]

@Jerle

Releveling a new character is not the only way to preserve build identity. I absolutely think build identity is core to an ARPG experience that doesnt steer too much to the acardy side (aka D3).

“Build identity” is not my main concern. Yes it is a part of it, but not the “main” thing.
(Build identity is already watered down a little bit with the current skill system, not as much as D3, but still)

For me it’s more “class identity”. While in the current system we are allowed to put passives into other mastery trees and also being able to obtain access to some of that masteries active skills. The Mastery Bonus and Exclusive Skills are somehow “sacred” (not trying to make a pun here) to me. When developing my char and coming to “the decision” which mastery i should choose, it should be a really really important decision. And that is the case atm, which i really really like.

You proposed “2 million gold” is an astronomical amount i would say, but still it does take away the “sacredness” of those mastery bonuses/exclusive skills for me personally.

On top of that, if you begin with being able to respec that, there will arise the next debate, on how much “worth” is this respec. And then we can very quickly fall into a realm were people arguing about making it easier. And all of the sudden we reach the point, where some poeple argue, why have a respec cost at all. I simply don’t want that.

@Jerle

Or he will complain that he can probably level 2 - 3 new chracters to endgame in the time required to farm 2mil gold?

That is a very excellent point. We must weight time vs ressources. For some people one will be more valuable than others and even ressources needs to be farmed/grinded, depending on how rare you make them.

While being not exactly on-topic: I would much rather have one or multiple systems helping with leveling new alts, after reaching certain milestones with you first character.
Some people, me including did make some suggestions here

[helot_commander]

For passives, you can already choose to respec all of your passive points for a currency: Gold.

I’d like to see an option to just ‘unlearn all’ on the respec NPC, so that I can just pay the lump sum instead of tediously unlearning every passive.

If you were talking about Specializations for Skills, I can see why it would be interesting, but it’s usually not difficult to run around with a single skill at half points, and re-leveling it doesn’t take so long that I think you’d need a currency specifically for it.

If they wanted to implement something, You could put in an ‘overflow’ exp bar, where skills would continue to gain experience and grant respec points for that skill.

For Mastery, I understand the reason they want to lock in the choice on a per character basis. As Rimed said, it’s class identity. The first 20-25 Levels are building up to the ‘real’ class choice, when you pick your mastery.

Personally, I don’t like re-levelling with multiple characters of the same class. Even going from 0-25 just for the mastery is a pain to me, because nothing changes.
Every quest is the same.
Every dialogue option is the same.
Every NPC is the same.

If they were to add ANY option, I’d like to be able to start a second character of the same class at the same point I chose my mastery last time. So if I was level 25, then it starts at 25, with all previous quests done.
Note: I’m not actually advocating this be added, but it’s about the only option for Mastery’s I could see myself enjoying.

Some people are fine with repeating the process multiple times. That’s great for them, and they can enjoy it. I personally don’t find it enjoyable to repeat the same task without variance.

I also dislike watching the same movie multiple times, or read the same book multiple times. If the story is truly gripping, I can immerse myself and do it. If it’s terrible I literally CANNOT force myself to. I have 2 novels which I’ve read once, and swore never to read again because I hated every minute of it.

Conversely I’ve read The Hobbit by JRR Tolkien at least 10-12 times. I can read, and re-read that classic and enjoy it every time. But The Lord of the Rings I’ve read the first book 8-9 times, the second 4-5, and the third twice. I just can’t keep pushing through the content.

For a video game, it’s extremely difficult to satisfy my requirements for replayability, because most games want you to keep playing. The story can only bring it so far, and the content usually isn’t immersive enough to keep me there. The endgame is ‘grind X until Y gear is acquired’ or even ‘Grind X till you get Y. Then Grind Y till you get Z. Then go back to X+1 and repeat’.

For MMO’s, it’s the people I play with. I can run the same mindless content a hundred times if I’m doing so with a group of people I like.

As far as Beta-only options go: I believe other people have stated in other posts why this is a bad idea.
No matter how well you phrase it, no matter what information is given, people react poorly to a perceived ‘loss’ of functionality that they have been used to. Adding an option to respec mastery in the Beta would add the perception that it will remain there in Live, even if that’s not true.

TLDR: You can use Gold for Passives, Skills can be retrained with Time anyway, so why add an item you have to farm, and Mastery’s should be a Lock’n’Load option that you can’t change.

[Shrukn]

@Heavy

I simply don’t want that.

no you want people to HAVE to be forced to reroll a whole new character for making potential mistakes because YOU feel its necessary for some reason.

‘Class identity’ come on get real

its perfectly reasonable according to you to have to restart a 96 Paladin because you didn’t pick Forge Guard 3 weeks prior and now you want to switch.

I don’t care what you do, I don’t care if you want to reroll constantly and never make any real progress…thats on you but not for me I want the option to switch my Mastery at a cost and its ridiculous to expect anyone else to not want to do the same

[Jerle]

@Heavy

The Mastery Bonus and Exclusive Skills are somehow “sacred” (not trying to make a pun here) to me.

I understand the Role-Playing appeal of such a “sacred choice” but what if for lore sake, we have a mini quest you need to do before you can pay 2mil gold for the token I suggested? Would that balance things off for you?

[Heavy]

Why do you quote one single sentence out of context, that is really unfair, just saying.
The thing you quoted was refering to the endless debates that follow after making respec available. Wanting to make it easier and easier and easier.

Your attitude and approach towards my opinion is really hostile. Isn’t it just enough to state your own opinion? And not try to devalue any of my viewpoint with stuff like

‘Class identity’ come on get real or its ridiculous to expect anyone else to not want to do the same

We are already going down the same route here, why the thread was closed for 24 hours.

@Jerle

but what if for lore sake, we have a mini quest you need to do before you can pay 2mil gold for the token I suggested?

Hm not sure, it’s not so much “lore sake” for me. The main issue for me is, if you make it possible in the first place, it takes away alot of the weight, regardless how astronomical high the respec costs are.

I still would prefer being able to re-level additional chars very fast/efficiently through some other additional game systems.

[XLVI_carpo]

@Shrukn

I don’t care what you do, I don’t care if you want to reroll constantly and never make any real progress…thats on you but not for me I want the option to switch my Mastery at a cost and its ridiculous to expect anyone else to not want to do the same

“I want this! I want that! I don’t care what you want!” That is exactly the behaviour you complain about in the same post. I don’t see you making any valid point besides the fact that you think your opinion is worth more than others.

[Shrukn]

Because what I want doesn’t affect you, what you want does affect me

@XLVI_carpo

I don’t see you making any valid point

No I suggested there should be a respec items like a consumable book that is a rare drop

@Heavy

Your attitude and approach towards my opinion is really hostile

Easy way out on this forum, when someone doesn’t agree they are hostile

[Jerle]

@Shrukn

Because what I want doesn’t affect you, what you want does affect me

Everything that anyone wants affects everyone. There’s no such thing that some wants affect one way and not others.

@Shrukn

Easy way out on this forum, when someone doesn’t agree they are hostile

You can disagree. You just have very poor choice of words when you disagree. He already quoted those poor choice of words of yours “get real”, “ridiculous” - anyone who disagree with you is out of touch? Anyone who disagree is being ridiculous?

I share the same view as you on this matter but I didn’t need to resort to your kind of language. Let’s all have a civil discussion without name calling.