Naturally, they’d have to remove this. The “4x” was just an example of a simple a different loot table could be.
I couldn’t agree more.
Please developers. Please.
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I mean I can’t really make up my mind on this one point. Instanced loot being tradeable. This is the only part of this discussion that I keep going back and forth on. I am mostly leaning towards no shared loot AT ALL for some of the reasons you said. No trading at all in the game would probably be the best solution. Because even if you start allowing party members to share loot you are being more efficient than someone playing solo. That would feel bad to people that want to play solo. They would sort of be losing out on the advantage of party play. The only way to make it completely fair for solo vs party play is to make loot SELF FOUND only. No trading at all whatsoever. That way the developers do not have to balance the game around multiplayer at all as far as trading and drops go. I guess I don’t see another way other than no trading at all. This would allow them to keep the game similar to how it is now but just let people play together. I think this might be the best solution.
Yup, and in your entire reply you haven’t made any arguments on the opposite side of the spectrum that I could debate, argue or possibly agree with. So, why don’t you actually get off the fence and make some instead of merely quoting back what I wrote?
Using chat or third party services like forums to contact people that sell stuff or sell stuff yourself is social interaction, whether it is deep and philosophical or just on the surface like “kk, thx, bye”.
You won’t find a new friend for life either every trade. But it is not impossible and happens from time to time. But that’s not what people meant when they say “social interaction”.
Some people just like the aspect of having the opportunity to interact with people for trading. Sometimes they are in the mood for gossip, sometimes not. It’s not up to you to judge if it is social interaction the way you define it for yourself.
I don’t get why you seem so heated about it.
Trading is an aspect of being in a guild. For some people this just goes hand in hand.
When I am aware that a buddy of mine is playing a certain build and needs certain items I’ll also look for it. And if I find something nice I’ll gift it to him or trade if he has something for me. It’s not necessary. He would be my friend even without trade. I would chat and play with him. But being able to help gear wise deepens this even more and adds a new layer of interaction. Whether you call it social or not.
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I agree that trading can be a social aspect of games. Denying that is just being unrealistic. Sharing items with friends helps build relationships. I don’t think the benefit of the social aspect of trading outweighs the cons though. You can be social in other ways.
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The heated portion of this argument assumes its an all or nothing deal with trading on a larger scale…It doesn’t have to be. It can be enjoyable. It can well done. It can do all of that and not hurt the single player experience…
For players who like hunting items, selling their top gear, making connections with other players, and hell maybe even CRAFTING for other players (eventually), I suggest the devs look at two trading/bazaar systems:
Lineage 2 bazaar
ESO Trade Guilds
These are environments that limit potential sales in various ways, and also provide a more unique trading experience…These are not all out auction house type systems and are prime examples of some alternates out there in existence right now, attached to well developed economies.
I think not providing anything outside of in-instance/in-party item sharing would be doing LE a disservice.
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It’s just two opposing sides but I’m pretty much done because there is not realy a discussion and I’ll state my final verdict :).
Trade like in D3 has so much flaws it makes no sence to implement it from my point of view. To me it’s very important to be able to trade in a realy small scale aka with friends or with people I play reglulary with. I don’t need a global auction house and don’t mind such things very much because I tend to get a bazzillion storage tabs and save everything remotly intresting.
To me the best system would be a group system. If you are 7 days in said group (call it guild, cycle, friendlist, apples, oranges or whatever) you can use a shared storage and take stuff out of it or put stuff in. This stops RMT pretty much or make it such a long term thing it’s easier to get behind it.
On the other side friends can freely share their stuff or members of an online community. The size of the group people can trade freely can be restricted from 5 to whatever seems right.
No global trade, a hurdle for RMT and if you add a 7 day cooldown until you can join another trade circle you’ll think twice if you hopp arround or not.
From my point of view it should be rather reasonable to add a storage different people can use as long as they are in a certain group of players.
Thjis isn’t hurting anyone and still allows friends to play at different times without the feeling of a potential drop that is vendor trash for me but a treasure for a friend I play with who needs to install a cupboard for his mom and is afk for an hour.
On top of it this allows social interaction because noone want’s to farm loot for an anonymus person who takes everything out of the shared stash. Most likely only people who know each other will share loot in this way. No ingame currency involved and all the jealous people don’t see the stuff that is traded in a small group and don’t cry us a river of salty tears.
This is a trading system I like because I’m used to share stuff from my P&P and pc gaming experiences even if this seems strange to some more self centered people who go into babyrage when they see stuff they can’t afford because of whatever reason.
At this point I think all trade discussions should stop and we should all wait until LE’s system is revealed. There are some well thought out posts here I agree with, but most posts with an idea on how to go about trade are selfish in nature and exist to first and above all else benefit the poster, not the LE community at large.
My only bullet points of concern are - there should be no gate keeping, there should be no external resources needed to participate. God’s speed to the devs lol.
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What would you mean by that in an in-game trading context?
There is another thread that is recent where the poster said trading should be tied to story completion and then based on corruption if I remember correctly. Lets be real, there will be a large portion of players who never see that end game content. If I play the game casually I do not get to partake in trading, or my trading is limited because of it?
This thread suggests instanced based party trading. I dont want to play mp and should not be disallowed to trade because of it.
I am not the person to ask how to make a great trading system, but I do know what feels bad. These aforementioned examples feel bad.
Side note. I dont post a lot but I have been here for a long time. Thank you @llama8 for helping so many people out since forever.
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Well in a discussion forum, unless it’s a reply to a tech question with a tech answer, then replies are usually opinion and opinions are usually by their very nature “selfish”. You can’t express your thoughts or opinion on something without really imposing your personal will, it’s the nature of the beast. I think the same can be applied to any topic that’s not purely a question & answer based on fact.
To clarify me being “heated” I need to point out that it’s not trading itself that gets me in a tizz, it’s the associated side effects that concern me.
I don’t care what other players do with their “loot” or “stash”. I don’t care if they sell it, delete it, drop it, store it, or even sacrifice it to the Gods. Trading, if it doesn’t effect my playing in any way, doesn’t bother me one iota.
However, in plenty of other multiplayer games trading sadly can also bring with it a Trading Economy. Economies can bring a bunch of other side effects which do affect others who might not even be using the Trade function, such as:
Drop Rate changes
Bots used for grinding, trading, chat spam, market manipulation etc
Anti-Bot measures that might also inadvertently effect non bot players
RMT
It’s these that worry me. The things a Trading Economy can bring into a game can ruin it for a lot of players, and yes, I have been on the end of that in many games.
That’s why I think sharing items without receiving anything in return (donating) is such a good thing. With that system there is no trading economy. Without a trading economy, there’s no real practical reason for the above problems to arise as there’s no way it can possibly be manipulated into RMT.
This is what really nettles me. If people were truly concerned with only being able to give useful items to other players, then “donating” should answer their needs. However, a lot of these “noble” people who SAY they only want to see those items go to good use, actually want to personally benefit from those items, and that is an entirely different scenario. Those people actually want nothing more than a Trading Economy, but they’re disguising that wish under the subtle mask of acting “noble” and wanting to benefit others. There’s also the more sinister possibility of people campaigning for a Trade Economy because they already benefit in RMT from other popular games that have this feature (I am by no means suggesting that is happening here but I have seen it in other F2P games where anyone can make an account for free). You might think this last one a little “conspiracy theory”, but as soon as money/real income becomes a potential involvement then all rules of “decency” and normality go out of the window.
Too many people aren’t happy with simply playing an ARPG, they really want an ARPG/Monopoly hybrid and there are already plenty of those out there. Why does LE have to become yet another ARPG/Monopoly hybrid clone?
To summarise: I have no problems with people “gifting/sharing/donating” items to others who could use them, but I am completely against a Trading Economy.
I hope that clarifies my concerns/position a little more succinctly. 
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This is an example of one of the well thought out posts I mentioned, just to clarify because I was very vague, you were by no means in the group I mentioned.
Appreciate the detailed response, I totally respect your thoughts.
And to to further clarify, ideas to make this game better are always great whether it concerns making certain skills feel better, tweaking monolith to make it feel better etc etc. Trade on the other hand, we know absolutely nothing about. Most of us come from PoE or D3, both with systems that leave much to be desired, and as a result, the trade suggestions reflect feelings tied to those systems. Lets hear what the devs have to say, we know they are having a tough time deciding how to pursue the topic, they very well may have a completely novel approach under works.
I would like to hear from the devs, giving us a foundation to then critique and provide feedback to. Collectively we have a ton of experience trading in various games, I feel we all could truely help move their idea along, we just need to hear it.
Thanks again for the response @Maelstromicus
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I wouldn’t be surprised if the devs would like to know what trade is going to look like…
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Haha fair point, so many people want/expect trade to be a certain way, it is a touchy subject that has to be extremely aggravating for the devs to tackle. It is quite obvious no system will appease everyone, I just hope whichever route they go, everyone can partake regardless of how much/little they play.
Trading in PoE turned into such a shit show I ended up giving SSF a try, and it gave me an entirely different outlook as well as an obviously new approach to how I played. I am in the crowd that wouldn’t necessarily be upset if trade was scraped, but more ways to play is obviously better.
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Who are you to know what happens in the heads of most people to say something like this?
Sure a ton of people want to get something for their effort that’s true and as old as humanity. Then again there are a LOT of people who work togheter in loot driven games and you should not forget those people.
RMT is bad, chat spam is bad, bots are bad and so on and so forth but trading isn’t. Trading is just trading but what comes along with it is realy bad yeah.
If too many people want such stuff it’s healthy for a game to implement it to keep players instead of driving them away by prohibition of trading.
That’s not a binary thing and only good or only bad.
Look at this I completely agree 100% with the idea buuuut without restrictions this opens the door wide for RMT and botting and whatnot. PoE is the best example and i just checked it out. You are able to RMT there far to much why I pointed out the option some posts above to let people form trading cycles that have restrctions in player numers that can participate and time gates to be ready to trade and to get into a new group of players to trade with them. This should pretty much hurt RMT or make it not worth.
Huh? You obviously didn’t understand what I was saying at all to reply with this.
I will try and explain this in even simpler terms so you might get it.
“gifting/sharing/donating” means one person gives another an item WITH NOTHING IN RETURN. No reciprocal item, no currency, no vouchers, stamps, or bicycle parts - NOTHING.
So, if NOTHING is received, then there is NO BENEFIT and therefore NO ECONOMY.
With NO ECONOMY there is nothing to RMT, or to be gained with BOTS. If they can make no money or there is nothing to be gained, then NO DOORS ARE OPENED.
I really do hope this makes something that was already pretty simple even simpler to understand. If that fails, then I’ll have no resort other than to simply put it down to trolling, and go down my usual recourse with trolls which is to block them. I sincerely hope this is not the case.
Back when I played D2 I recall services that allowed other players to purchase items out of game (on a website) and then that seller would “gift/share/donate” these items to the player that purchased them. The seller obtained these items via the various Bot farms they had running and sell them for real money, thus being an example of Botting and RMT.
Doesn’t your suggestion allow for the same thing? Sure, the seller receives nothing in the game, but outside of it they’re receiving real money.
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Yeah, I guess you can work around anything with the will to do it.
Ok, I give in. Frankly I’ve got better things to do with my life than spend it fruitlessly in here. I said my opinion and I can’t be bothered with anything more.
Sure, let’s have trading in LE. Let’s have an economy. Let’s have all the EZ mode that modern gamers seem to want. In fact, let’s just have another identical clone of the other popular ARPGs. Why bother with Beta testing at all? All some people seem to want is exactly what’s in other games anyway, so quite why they’re even here and not playing those other games boggles the mind, or it would if a mind was present.
Then some of us can pop back in a couple of years, admire the desolation, and have the scant reward of saying “we told you so”.
I’m out. Have fun.
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