Guilds in ESO have a cap, hence I said they are limited in size…but it’s not quite as important as limiting the number of items that can be sold at one time. So, there two caps at play here. ESO has much the same goals as LE, as far as loot progression goes.
Agree with this.
The cockamamie views about trade from the developers of a certain dominant ARPG, and the abject failure of a certain other ARPG to intelligently integrate accessible trade have polluted the conversation about trade with pearl clutching for over a decade. LE’s discussion and implementation of trade does not need to also be polluted by the same nonsense. None of the fears are valid and all can be mitigated. But nobody is willing to try because gamers that have spent years swallowing BS turn into banshees at the first sniff of the phrase “auction house”.
Blizzard didn’t get it right because they didn’t try. They just dropped an AH down and made no attempt to do anything differently in the entire rest of the game. There are probably a dozen or more things they could have at least tried, and they did none of them.
Anybody who tells me that my drops don’t matter because I got a valuable drop that I didn’t want and conveniently converted it into an item I did want through trade is trying to sell me a bridge. That premise is either a lie or a delusion, depending on who is saying it, and everybody needs to stop treating it like gospel.
In your usual angle grinder way, between the violent sparks of burning iron, you do make valid points.
The thing here is that you dont accept that an Arpg doesnt actually need trading… and, the simple fact that if it did have trading that did not close 100% of the loopholes & negative repercussions, it has the potential of destroying a game…
So yes, a perfect implementation of a trading system in a game that couldnt be manipulated, not influenced by bots & real life money scams and didnt cause countless other problems in a game in terms of balance etc would be wonderful…
But the developers are developing an arpg game… not a trading system with an economy and a game attached to it…
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I am assuming a gross generalisation on your part here… but what happens if the devs dont allow a full trading solution that requires/generates an economy that they then have to manage?
Just speculating as I have no idea… but based on all the trade discussions that have been had here on the forum, including the devs changing their tack numerous times… I doubt that the devs are planning a complex trading system - at least not at first…
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I don’t think an arpg with a well designed loot system needs trade. As long as they give you enough storage to store items for other builds, loot can actually be fun instead of an economy simulator chore. You can have multiplayer where people play together without trading. It would be so nice.
Do you like the way the current game is? I do. Why can’t it stay the way it is with loot but just allow me to play with friends? Seems like a great arpg to me.
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Imagine if you didn’t ever have to go on an auction house or trade website or figure out the value of an item or if you had to double check to make sure your item wasn’t price fixed or that the person trading you wasn’t scamming you. Imagine not having to compete with bots buying things before you or item flippers. Imagine just playing the game instead. Imagine a world that is the current version of the game but you can play with friends. Sounds good to me.
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Why do people play one game within a genre and not another?
Simple, differences between the games.
So, why do any newer games within a genre have to attempt to mimic other games within that genre? The basic premise of this is flawed. It is illogical.
So, do we need an economy or trading at all? I personally don’t think so. I’ve yet to see anything tangible that an economy or trading brings to any other game I’ve played in the past, aside from “easy mode” or “lazy mode”. Do we really want those types of players in the community in the first place? What do “instant gratification” players bring to the table long term for games or their devs? It seems to me, in my opinion again, that all these types of players bring are headaches, whinging, trolling in forums, and “dumbing down” of games. They want to start new toons, do no grinding or work to speak of, buy all their gear, coast through levels to end game in BiS levelling gear, buy more gear; then get bored and moan about content, having done very little of it in any meaningful way.
I am completely in favour of multiplayer instanced trading. If we ever get MP type content like raids then I think being able to redistribute that gear amongst your party after the boss is absolutely fine. It’s another reward for working together on that “job”.
Should you then be able to sell it to any other player via an AH or Trading site? No, I don’t support that at all. I could have just about got behind the Bazaar as I’ve seen that work elsewhere and it requires some effort from players to walk the place etc. AH’s though? No thanks.
Using MP instanced loot. A newer player could group with more experienced players or mates to grind some gear collectively. No problem, it’s gear gained from gameplay. A new build/toon could group with his mates to help gear it up faster. Again, gameplay based gear. No problem.
New player/toon just buying from an AH etc? No. Zero gameplay involved. As to how they get their currency initially? Well, that’s where the main problems start, especially for new accounts who don’t actually want to play much at all to level or grind currency.
I say, probably unpopularly once again, don’t cater to the snowflakes or “easy mode” people at all. There are already tons upon tons of games out there that offer instant gratification for these people. Some of us came here to avoid that. We graft or grind for our gear, not just buy it. Forget the instant gratification people, ignore them. Give us this one ARPG game safe haven from “economies”, “trading”, and all the other crap that comes with it. MP instanced swapping as a reward for gameplay? Sure. Anything else, go play something else.
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“I don’t like free trade so ruin it for everyone else!” I might make this discussion short but if you don’t want to trade outside of your party then simply don’t do it.
Let’s say you play Hero siege where you can trade freely and have the option to trade in person or through a Marketplace. In what way is this hurting people who only want to trade in a realy small frame?
Restricting trade in a PvE game is stupid from my point of view and a personal driven agenda that searches for excuses like economy and whatnot.
I HATE it if i have an item that does NOTHING for me and is BiS for a friend and I only can vendor trash it because I can’t trade it freely just because I played solo while he was grabbing a snack.
I realy need to correct myself it’s beyond stupid to restrict trading to much just because some people get angry about prices, economy, inflation or jealous about what other people can afford or buy because they treated the game like a trading sim instead of a loot hunt hack and slay.
I’m personaly against PvP because I don’t like it and think it’s a waste of development time but I’ll never fight against a game system that is implemented that is meaningfull for some people.
LE is full of trashloot if you play build xyz and one mans trash is another mans treasure. I don’t know who’ll be directly hurt if trading is free because it’s fair game if I farm an item or the gold (or insert currency here) to buy said item. Time spent farming is time spent farming is time spent farming.
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Why do people keep acting like implementing a trade/marketplace won’t require a loot drop rebalance? Even if someone doesn’t want to trade at all, trade still effects them because loot drops will have to be balanced down. Meaning anyone that doesn’t want to trade suffers from lower drop rates. (Everyone would have lower drop rates, but people would just buy what they want on the AH).
On top of that, PoE has the most successful trading system from any aRPG. This is only possible because of the currency items. LE has gold, which in every single aRPG, fails as a currency. Any item with an absurdly low drop rate will end up costing billions of gold, time gating anyone but the richest from buying it anyway. LE could make runes/glyphs the trade currency, but that doesn’t fix the “rich” problem.
Some of the pro-trade people need to stop making strawman arguments about the other side of the debate. These are legitimate concerns that have been borne out in every other circumstance. “But it just hasn’t been done right yet” is not a valid argument. Anyone that says that may be suffering under some utopian delusion.
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Agreed, I only ever seem to see coherent arguments from those on the “nay” side for trade, all I see on the “yay” side are mostly incoherent ramblings without much logic (or due to alcohol?) or as you say “strawman arguments”. I can honestly say I have yet to EVER see a logical argument for trade, or any tangible benefits it brings to a game’s community as a whole.
I think, this in itself, tells the story more than any actual debate.
So, do we want a game for logical & reasoned players or for the EZ mode gratuitous ones?
Come on. Really? You honestly expect us to believe it has nothing to do with “I want to get Rich”…
If it’s the item only, go farm in a group and use a MP instanced “sharing” system. I don’t buy this whole “I only want to give it to a mate who just happened to not be in party with me at the only time the only BiS item dropped” malarky.
Besides, no “BiS” items ever drop in LE. The best you can get is as a combined result of drops & crafting. Anyone who plays High Corr Monos, High level Arena, or T4 Dungeons will tell you this. Anything that drops needs crafting of some sort or another. The chance of getting a T28 level item with perfect affixes to drop is about as likely as the US & UK Gov’s reducing Taxes to 0% !!!
But unless you’re trading at the top end it’s so ball achingly painful. The currency items aspect of it is/was genius but GGG’s slavish desire to remain in the 90s makes it feel awful if you’re trying to just buy one or two maps to get your atlas progressed (and aren’t willing to either buy in bulk or pay over the odds) or you’re just trying to cobble together so budget gear to get to maps and aren’t keeping up with “the rest of the community” and haven’t reached maps withing a few hours of league start.
I’m sure there are some people who love PoE’s trading, but for a casual PoE player it just felt so bad.
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Its comparing apples & oranges, but arguably one of the most successful multiplayer games in recent times (on player numbers & financials) - Fortnite - only allows in-instance trading and sidesteps the entire trading issue entirely - even in the PvE mode…
Another thing I also see as causing some confusion here is the idea of trade for profit vs just trading to “share” items with your friends… entirely different imho and enabled entirely differently… There is no need for currency or an economy if people are just giving/sharing drops with friends and not expecting or associating value beyond helping someone else…
I must admit I am so bored of this discussion / issue / conundrum… I am beginning to hate the idea of trading just because of it…
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Exactly. I haven’t played Fortnite, but it sounds as though it’s a good example of what I would consider “sharing”.
I also think that items should only be able to be given or swapped for other items, no currency at all. So, you’re in the party, you click “share”, the 2 boxes open (1 for you, 1 for them), and you can only either leave it blank or put an item in to swap with no currency option.
Keeping it “in party” or restricted with a timer to “recently partied with”, plus the “no currency” would remove an economy altogether, and highly reduce any possible chance of RMT. It also ensures that people actually have to play the game to get gear, rather than “use daddies credit card” 
I also agree that
It’s starting to make me feel exactly the same. I cringe every time I see the word in a title now.
IMO if you are trading at all you are not casual, or at least not ‘playing casually’ you are making efficient decisions to progress at your whim, spending 2 minutes buying maps when instead you could spend 25 minutes farming the relevant map drop is your choice.
I trade a lot in PoE, 95% selling usually, if im buying something I always pay slightly more because they usually respond/have more, buying one item here/there isnt an issue some items are painful to buy yes, but also you can let buyers come to you. You can sell chaos for exalts instead of chasing the buyers who dont respond, let them come to you, and they do en masse
I dont even want to trade in LE, and ive asked many times in general here if there was an active economy where people can trade anything for anything there would need to be a ‘minimum bar’ set for certain things otherwise value is unknown
PoE solves the currency by allowing vendors to sell currency for other currency
Trading in LE sounds like the way D3 implemented it which is good and it hope it stays like that
At a certain point I farm for days to get an item upgrade so how far down should loot be balanced because there is trading? That argument makes 0 sence to me. Are there some articals about this topic to dig in?
No… 3 seasons ago I got an early Chaos Orb and played poetrade rather then the season and ended up in BiS gear with arround 50k ex worth of stuff + currency in my bank just because i played the trading side 24/7. PoEs trade is the worse because it allows scripts and bots on top of the small scale market maipulation I did because I’m a Bonobo when it comes to it.
That’s no success from my point of view instead it’s the same as every other trading system but instead of one ressource they use multiple while every price is meassured in Chaos Orbs. it’s simple to see that 1 CO = 1 Currency everything else are just cents or bigger numbers when it comes to exalts mirrors and stuff like that.
And there we are at the point when players look what others have and become jealos about it. I don’t give a rats ass about what other people can or can’t afford because it isn’t affecting me. If I can trade something I trade it, if I can sell something I sell it if I can afford something I buy it and if I can’t afford something I don’t care about. The rich “problem” is a you problem from my point of view.
Sure the inflation get’s silly realy fast but so does it in PoE. With a tad bit of rng luck I can craft an outstanding item for 100CO worth and sell it for 10 exalt at some point in the season. I don’t even want to start with the offseason prices. PoE trade = trade like everywhere else.
Trading is a social aspect of games. I don’t know if anyone of you ever played DaoC but we had guild meetings on weekends and traded stuff with guild mates in need because there was nothing soulbound or such a modern day crap that artificaly increases playtime by restrictions. people were happy to get good stuff to grind more efficent and everyone was happy they grinded more efficent because these people were also needed in the next grindfest or war.
Trading is something to close gaps in builds for the unlucky and give a tad bit of hope not all is lost and there items out there they might get even when they only drop crap for their own build.
And for the logic part: Every society lived on some form of trading and posession so it is only logical to have trading ingame because it’s already there. If player trading is restricted so should NPC trading be restricted because trading is meh ^^. Prohibit trading makes no sence at all like almost every other prohibition people on the “nay” side ask for.
For some for sure but I don’t care that much about as stated above. If I can buy something that helps I’m happy also if I can sell something. The most important part for me is free trading with friends I play togheter with even if they are not online while an item dropped.
maybe i get this wrong because I’m not a native speaker but do you argument with your personal bias right now and with what you think others secretly want to say? To me that’s sounds like some conspiracy crap ^^.
So it’s time to come with some solutions then…
Implement a kind of “guild mechanic” and guild a second shared stash where items can be put in and taking out by guildmates. Restrict the guild size at 10-40 people where updates in guild size can be bought with a ton of gold to have another gold sink and logical trading with friends you play with.
Free trading needs to be reglemented. Let’s say an item ou want to sell is worth 100G at the vendor this allows to sell said item on the free market for up to 110G. The price range that’s allowed for items can be any percentage or even just the vendor trash prieces to keep inflation in check. There is an old term for it called “Wucherzins” in germany some might know from a game called “The guild”. Google says it’s “usurious interest” in english but I can’t tell for sure.
There are ways to restrict trading without removing it mindlessly from the game or prohibit it so badly you should better remove it because it’s to restrictive. I play a lot with certain people and how often did I find a drop in D3 I was unable to trade because right at that moment my friends haven’t been online. That’s something that drives me nuts.
I play very casualy but have some time on my hands. When I inefficently farm for said time and get the stuff need to buy item X it’s fair game to me. Sure it makes strong pro players even stronger but that’s not an issue but skill and commitment.
I’d rather have it completely removed then the mess Blizzard invented but that’s just my personal oppinion.
Rubbish. This propaganda is trotted out constantly by those in favour of trading. It’s absolute nonsense. I challenge anyone to prove this!
With an AH, there is zero social interaction. With “trade channels in chat” there’s no social interaction. Spamming a price and having someone reply to that is NOT social interaction. Social interaction is asking how someone’s day is going, how their life it, how many cats they have, etc etc. Being forced to go to someone’s hideout simply to say “thx” after a trade is NOT social interaction.
Your example above used Guilds. Guilds ARE social interaction, but that is not initiated by inter-guild trade at all. People do not join guilds for the trading, it is a by-product. People would socially interact within a guild with or without items changing hands. So, mentioning guilds has absolutely ZERO to do with proving social interaction as a result purely of trading.
So, once again, I re-iterate
Nothing you posted above contradicts my statement.
Again, rubbish. I have loads of gear for each of my characters at END GAME in LE, and I have lots of characters. Not a SINGLE TRADE was involved. Trust me, when it comes to “luck” and RNG I am right at the bottom of the list! If there was a dictionary definition of “gaming unlucky”, it would list my account names for lots of games next to it. Even without any luck at all I have geared every single character in LE. Trade was not remotely needed, even once.
Again, absolute piffle. You refer to Real Life, but we discuss a game. In LE we have possession, needing trade is by no means a logical consequence. In Real Life, trading was done because there is an economy and wealth/assets were needed to procure things required to live. In a game that is not true, so the two are completely irrelevant to each other. In a game you don’t need to buy food, pay rent, buy water, or anything else in order to play. You can farm loot, destroy it, use it, sell it, and none of any of that impedes your ability to play. You don’t need to sell your loot in order to play. So, trade has no logical place in a game like LE and that in turn has no relevance to RL whatsoever.
I am all for “instanced party sharing” of loot items. Anyone who wants to play a “trading game” with an economy should bugger off and play Monopoly instead imho. There are plenty of fiscal games out there, why do these people want to pollute our nice ARPG with this nonsense?
OP, I think your question is not the right one. Different loot tables for SSF vs non-SSF solves your problem, and that’s what you should be requesting, imho
Alternatively, loot engines could be affected with a scalar factor for drops, such as SSF get 4x better drop, etc.
Also, don’t underestimate community efforts. Even with the instanced system, trade can be accomplished:
- highly geared player “sells” playing mono nodes with increasing loot rates for item types or certain bosses
- low geared player joins instance and basically follows
- low player sends back to high geared player all uniq picked up
- high geared player provide target loot
This system or a similar one will certainly start existing as soon as 0.9 is out. And it eventually lead to the issues that you described with loot being balanced for trade. So it sounds to me that you should focus on feedback towards a better SSF experience, rather.
Likely soon after 0.9, players being tired from the cumbersome trading experience will ask for a way to side step the whole thing.
So the point is: the moment players can exchange any items in any form, even in something as restricted as instance-based will lead to a trade economy.
Separating loot tables sounds like best of both worlds… At the cost of more effort on the dev side.
Sigh okay I make it short and use your terminoligy here: You proof nothing and all you say is rubbish and not proofed by anything. It’s a modern day desease invented by Blizzard and the hype train is running because some people forgot the good old times from 20+ years ago.
To make an example… noone cried salty tears about trading in D2 and the game is still popular and obviously not hurt by trading at all.
If trading isn’t a thing at all and again i would be fine with this we must think about stopping carries, leeching and powerleveling as well because you can sell activitys as well as goods. This is a never ending story and so far noone cam up with solution and some people seem to get worked up on the topic.
@amidelapoesie If you make one optional playstyle much more revarding then other A you take away the challange and B have a lot of players opt in for said overtuned content. Don’t forget you can have a SFF char and convert it back to normal play at any time. After getting 4x the loot I can go back to normal and laugh at everyone who hasn’t exploited this. That’s just the first thing that came to my mind wihtout even thinking 3 seconds about other ways to exploit different loot tables in different game modes.
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You’ve chosen to highlight the form of trade with the least social interaction & therefore declared that no implementation of trade can possibly have a single iota of social interaction.
There can be, it’s not as sociable as having a conversation with someone but that doesn’t mean it’s not sociable at all. Plus it can lead to more social interaction. And it can lead to haggling/bargaining which is more sociable.
Is it? Compared to meeting someone for a cup of {insert beverage here} typing words into a a game is pretty low on the scale, you can’t tell whether I’m having a good day or a bad day & might need some compassion so I think it’d be totally reasonable to say that chat isn’t social interaction.
That’s because you don’t like trade & don’t want to accept any arguments that disagree with your point of view, which is entirely your prerogative but doesn’t make it “right”.
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