Lunge Overhaul Coming in Sands of Majasa Update (0.8.3)

[EHG_Dodo]

Lunge Overhaul

Sands of Majasa Update is bringing a lot of updates to Sentinel, including to its core movement skill, Lunge. Lunge is receiving a full update with new VFX, a completely new skill tree, and also some changes to its base functionality.

In its current state, Lunge is the most effective movement skill in the game for going quickly from pack to pack. This is because Sentinel is largely a melee class and in mid-to-late game scenarios melee builds need tools to keep up with ranged characters. However, Lunge currently benefits throwing and spell Sentinel builds just as well, but it can become too extreme with increased cooldown recover speed, and in the early game, it can create too much of a disparity between different classes' movement in multiplayer. To address this we've increased the base cooldown, provided a cooldown recovery speed with the movement skills node in the sentinel passive tree, and changed the cooldown recovery nodes on the lunge tree to be melee specific.

The specialization tree is also getting a complete rework. The previous tree didn’t offer many viable options but it contained powerful temporary buffs that made it feel like you had to use Lunge every few seconds for those, even if you didn’t want to use it . We’ve removed the temporary buffs and added a lot more nodes that change Lunge and how you want to use it in more interesting ways. In particular, there are a lot more nodes that scale with distance traveled or how many enemies you passed through.

Some nodes that were just stat changes in the past now have more interesting tangible effects, such as the node that grants a bonus while using a polearm now making the damage of lunge extend a way past the target, with VFX to match.

We’ve also redone the base visual effect, and the void and fire conversion nodes on the new tree have their own visual variants, enabling Lunge to better match the rest of your build if you’re leaning heavily into void or fire.

[Vekongnitoo]

Love it, as well as visuals and how swift it is, max travelling distance is still one screen?

[TRiceTheEffort]

Will there be a way to use lunge without needing a target? Currently Sentintel only has access to movement skills that require having an enemy present in order to use them, making them much less useful for something like dodging boss mechanics or general traversing of a cleared area, or the End of Time, for instance.

[Llama8]

@TRiceTheEffort

Currently Sentintel only has access to movement skills that require having an enemy present in order to use them

And Shield Rush…

[TRiceTheEffort]

Ya know, I completely blanked there.

[ZaeN]

@EHG_Dodo

The previous tree didn’t offer many viable options but it contained powerful temporary buffs that made it feel like you had to use Lunge every few seconds for those, even if you didn’t want to use it . We’ve removed the temporary buffs and added a lot more nodes that change Lunge and how you want to use it in more interesting ways.

Nice, I agree with the changes, altho my VK will lose more than 30% crit chance ^^;

[Llama8]

Most people do when it comes to Shield Rush.

[Revelasti]

Can’t wait to try it out, I completely agree that the current passive tree for it feels underwhelming.

[Osmouu]

Sucks to see those powerful buffs gone, I dislike this change.

[Shtrak]

That sounds very cool!
As many players I also hope for an “escape” version of Lunge that would not require a target, even if it comes with no buff!

[Seleniele]

So you removed everything that made Lunge good. Impressive.

Note from EHG: This comment does not break the forum rules. Please do not intentionally antagonize other members of the community because they have a differing opinion.

[Llama8]

People only used 1 version of Lunge (for the crit bonus) which wasn’t a “healthy” use of the skill.

[XLVI_carpo]

Almost as impressive as that you can judge an overhauled skill without even knowing the whole tree or even having played it.

Having a skilltree where one branch is mandatory for every build, when the rest of the nodes is just fluff is not very well balanced. This skill needed an overhaul very desperately.

[Seleniele]

Not true. There are many builds that do not care about the “crit buff”.

@XLVI_carpo I have an opinion on the information given. The information give was that everything that made Lunge good has been removed.

Edit: Also I’m sorry but why do you people feel the need to attack people who have an opinion that may not be favorable? Do you not see that as a dangerous echo chamber in which all you guys agree with each other?
Yeah I think the change is not good at all and I don’t like it, am I not allowed to express my opinion on the forum of a game I payed for? Stop attacking people who disagree with the devs. You’re always ganging up on people.

[Shtrak]

@Seleniele

why do you people feel the need to attack people who have an opinion that may not be favorable?

Your assumption went further than the information we have.

@Seleniele

you removed everything that made Lunge good

You mean that is all what made Lunge good? There was nothing else good in the tree?

I hope (and am pretty sure) they don’t attack you as a person, but as someone who chose to put only negative things in the comment, to show no hope, to leave no room for a “but maybe”, etc.

What you said may be true, but we’ll only know when we see the whole skill tree.

[Llama8]

@Seleniele

Edit: Also I’m sorry but why do you people feel the need to attack people who have an opinion that may not be favorable? Do you not see that as a dangerous echo chamber in which all you guys agree with each other?

We’re not attacking you, we’re having a discussion. You made a statement based on incomplete information (that the devs removed everything good about Lunge), I made a quick counter argument (that there only being two branches of the skill tree that virtually all builds that use Lunge take, everything else is, as Raw said, fluff and that’s unhealthy), you’re then free to come back with further arguments/data/viewpoints to backup your original assertion. Or not.

Raw’s answer was better than mine as it went into more detail.

@Seleniele

Not true. There are many builds that do not care about the “crit buff”.

Such as? Are there any other nodes that people often take, maybe ones that are build defining?

• The charges node is nice but I’ve never taken it & I don’t think many people do.
• The node that gives armour based on dex is a nice idea but using the wrong stat since Sentinels never use a rare resource (prefixes) on an attribute that’ll give such a minimal improvement (especially when you get so much flat armour anyway & strength boosts both your offensive & defensive capabilities)
• The health & mana nodes are kinda nice but you can get way more from Time & Faith while using more effective spammable skills

I’m not sure that anyone uses Lunge as a DPS skill rather than a movement skill so most of the damage nodes are kinda pointless, though I guess more damage from a skill you use is better than less.

What is of much greater value to the majority of builds (ie, the non-DoT ones) is the 240% increased crit chance buff that’s up permanently (if you ignore Lagon). It’s just too good to not take.

Is there anything I missed? Are there any sleeper builds that are enabled by some combination of the nodes that aren’t Initiative-based?

@Seleniele

@RawSuicide I have an opinion on the information given. The information give was that everything that made Lunge good has been removed.

Which is fair enough, but they’ve only teased 5 nodes, you have no idea what else is on the new Lunge tree. If they’d teased 4 nodes from the Lightning Blast tree, I thinking of Surging Influence (increased chain range), Halo Effect (shock nova on first mob hit), Effluent Defence (ward gained per mana spent) & Innate Conduit (can be used when out of mana but can’t chain), you’d understandably think that it’s a bit of a shit skill rather than the beast that it is.

@Seleniele

Yeah I think the change is not good at all and I don’t like it, am I not allowed to express my opinion on the forum of a game I payed for?

You absolutely are & the devs need and appreciate the feedback, but I’m not sure you should be surprised when someone says “that’s not all of the tree” in answer to your “that looks shit” comment.

We also don’t all agree with each other. Heavy has quite a different view on skills to me.

[Seleniele]

@Llama8

but I’m not sure you should be surprised when someone says “that’s not all of the tree” in answer to your “that looks shit” comment.

Quote me where I wrote that.

I said that I commented on the information given. The information given was that they removed temporary buffs. The temporary buffs also included extra defense, extra stun avoidance, immunity while lunging. Also just because you don’t use double lunge doesn’t mean people are not using it. I find double lunge for example extremely important. Not to mention the removal of being able to lunge into objects. You make it sound like the only relevant things in the Lunge tree were the crit nodes but those were amongst the less important ones.

And my biggest concern is removing something that everyone likes and replacing it with additional support nodes. Why not improve on the left side of the skill tree. Why not remove that side which REALLY no one ever used and add these changes there. If the devs are so confident in the changes we would see people use that side as well.

This is a perfect case of finding problems where there were none. If you want to diversify a skill, improve the unused nodes in order to make them competitive with those who are always used. This is the same erroneous mentality that make devs nerf a skill instead of bringing the ones who are underperforming at the same standard as the strong one. But hey that’s more work, it’s just easier to nerf than to make interesting and meaningful changes.

[Heavy]

@Seleniele

Not to mention the removal of being able to lunge into objects.

What exactly do you mean by that? Not sure what you are referring to.

@Seleniele

You make it sound like the only relevant things in the Lunge tree were the crit nodes but those were amongst the less important ones.

I agree with you, that the armour and stun avoidance are really good.

But getting 240% global crit chance is ridiculously OP and not healthy, especially on a movement skill, because it forces you to use your movement skill all the time.

@Seleniele

And my biggest concern is removing something that everyone likes and replacing it with additional support nodes.

Just because something is so strong, that everybody uses it doesn’t necessarily means people “like it”.
It can be quite the contrary, where people feel forced into certain nodes, because they are just too strong.

@Seleniele

Why not remove that side which REALLY no one ever used and add these changes there. If the devs are so confident in the changes we would see people use that side as well.

As already stated multiple times here. We don’t know the full picture yet.

It sounds like Lunge is receiving a complete overall, not just specific branches getting removed.

@Seleniele

This is a perfect case of finding problems where there were none. If you want to diversify a skill, improve the unused nodes in order to make them competitive with those who are always used. This is the same erroneous mentality that make devs nerf a skill instead of bringing the ones who are underperforming at the same standard as the strong one. But hey that’s more work, it’s just easier to nerf than to make interesting and meaningful changes.

EHG does “buff” a lot of things.

But the issue with lunge is, that many of it’s problem are not just numeric, but the skill needs more identity as a movement skill, not as a temporary buff skill, that also is a movement skill.

I think EHG is and always was very excellent in identifying problems and coming up with very good solutions.

And sometimes removing stuff that does make the skill feel bad or mandatory is a good thing

[Seleniele]

@Heavy

What exactly do you mean by that? Not sure what you are referring to.

Well right now we can Lunge into destructible objects such as barrels, piles of wood etc. From my understanding we won’t be able to do that anymore. If I’m wrong I apologize, must not have fully understood or read careful enough.

@Heavy

But getting 240% global crit chance is ridiculously OP and not healthy, especially on a movement skill, because it forces you to use your movement skill all the time.

I agree to some extent that the crit buff is good. However we can also look at it from the perspective of, are you willing to use Lunge to get the buff or are you saving it in case you need to get out of some dangerous situation. Now obviously 90% of the time I use lunge for the buffs, that is however not to say that I found myself in situations where I wished I hadn’t just mindlessly used my Lunge for the crit buff for example and died because I had no way to get out of a messy situation.
I think a better approach would have been to fine tune some of these buff numbers instead of completely removing them. I just don’t like this cavemen approach of just obliterating things without a second thought.

[Llama8]

@Seleniele

@Llama8

but I’m not sure you should be surprised when someone says “that’s not all of the tree” in answer to your “that looks shit” comment.

Quote me where I wrote that.

@Seleniele

So you removed everything that made Lunge good.

There you go. If you remove “everything that made Lunge good” you have therefore made it shit. You may not have explicitly typed that, but it’s what you meant.

@Seleniele

I said that I commented on the information given. The information given was that they removed temporary buffs. The temporary buffs also included extra defense, extra stun avoidance, immunity while lunging. Also just because you don’t use double lunge doesn’t mean people are not using it. I find double lunge for example extremely important. Not to mention the removal of being able to lunge into objects. You make it sound like the only relevant things in the Lunge tree were the crit nodes but those were amongst the less important ones.

Ok, you like double Lunge, fair enough, where did they say they were removing it? Where did they say they were removing being able to “lunge into objects” (not entirely sure what you mean there, presumably the issue where walls aren’t solid to Lunge/Shield Rush & you can move through them, as can mobs)?

To quote the devs:

@EHG_Dodo

The previous tree didn’t offer many viable options but it contained powerful temporary buffs that made it feel like you had to use Lunge every few seconds for those, even if you didn’t want to use it

There’s a reason why most Sentinel builds use Lunge rather than Shield Rush, despite Shield Rush having more flexibility in being able to use it to get out of trouble as much as getting into trouble. Check out the Sentinel builds on the forum, how many of them don’t use Lunge for the crit buff?

@Seleniele

And my biggest concern is removing something that everyone likes and replacing it with additional support nodes. Why not improve on the left side of the skill tree. Why not remove that side which REALLY no one ever used and add these changes there. If the devs are so confident in the changes we would see people use that side as well.

Which is a valid point. They could also have changed the crit chance buff to only affect melee crit if they were too concerned about casters/throwing skills benefiting from it…

@Seleniele

This is a perfect case of finding problems where there were none.

I’ll refer you to your previous comment for this. If people are only using one section of a tree, that’s a problem.

@Seleniele

Why not remove that side which REALLY no one ever used

@Seleniele

If you want to diversify a skill, improve the unused nodes in order to make them competitive with those who are always used. This is the same erroneous mentality that make devs nerf a skill instead of bringing the ones who are underperforming at the same standard as the strong one. But hey that’s more work, it’s just easier to nerf than to make interesting and meaningful changes.

IMO, this is a common fallacy. Devs have their own view on where they want skills to be in terms of power, if a skill/build is clearly performing too well, it needs a nerf, though as you say, they also need to buff the underperforming skills/builds as well. And I’m sure that that is somewhat harder. That viewpoint also implies that devs are lazy &/or afraid of hard work, which I very much doubt is true in most cases (there will be some lazy devs just like there are some lazy non-devs & lazy gamers, not that I’m implying you’re one of those).

Edit:

@Seleniele

Well right now we can Lunge into destructible objects such as barrels, piles of wood etc. From my understanding we won’t be able to do that anymore. If I’m wrong I apologize, must not have fully understood or read careful enough.

They haven’t said that here, certainly.

I just don’t like this cavemen approach of just obliterating things without a second thought.

That’s quite a reach…