Also Kulze:
Hahaha, sorry, couldn’t help myself. 
4 Likes
Fair 
But while EHG are a dedicated bunch knowing of the direction of game they wanna make I simply don’t think they know how to handle that in the details properly, because that’s a completely different level for your knowledge-base.
I mean… it’s the same for everywhere else too. Look at other hobbies… for example RC car racing. Some people like it, some are decent or good in it… and then there’s some which actively work on going so far as to not only become masterful in their control but also by tuning their RC cars to a degree they even take air-drag into consideration.
The devil’s always in the detail. And I just thing EHG is still at the ‘they’re great RC car drivers with basic knowledge of tuning’ stage, but given how complex their product is becoming and to make one which provides a smooth progression, decent balance, proper amounts of content fitting to the time it’s out and cohesive mechanics… yeah, they just got a way to go still.
1 Like
Or maybe they know the direction they want to take and are sticking to their guns moving in that direction, it’s just not the direction you’d like. It’s also a possibility.
1 Like
Then stuff wouldn’t be handled contradictory, so it can’t be the case.
There’s hitches and issues and imbalance, wrongly positioned mechanics and also not fleshed out mechanics in the game.
So nah, I’ll rule that out, the alternative is that the game’s a guaranteed failure moving forward as those will only accumulate over time and changing the direction is far harder both to actually do as well as keep up internal morale in the company. So it’s not something I would enjoy to think about, could be the case though, I just deem it unlikely.
1 Like
I don’t see such lines in the sand. I am perfectly fine with eggs adding both LP and Affixes for Uniques, set items and Exaltds items.
The way I see it. It’s a personal choice. If you place an item here are the outcomes
LP: upgraded to a legendary or increased LP potential, or more forge potential. None of these scenarios guarantee a good item. I risk either bricking the item with a bad roll, wasting a nemesis upgrade (going from 3Lp to 4Lp is only a +1) or still fighting the sealed affixes or affix coverstion, or loosing millions for not selling item on MG. In either case the situation is a choice.
Bringing the 0LP unique to 4LP in the above scenario is so low I would not even worry about it. As you can manually set the probabilities but still allow it to be done.
As I think that allows more room for BiS items. Yes I want a 4LP ominis. But if I have a 0.000000005% chance to get it….who cares.
Devs need to stop killing the fun by hyper analyzing situations and just let us do what we want. This means removing all restrictions. I meantioned this before also in the why can’t we have each affix available on all slots.
Answer: devs decided it. So undecide it and let’s move on with our life
1 Like
This wasn’t discussed.
The discussion was to use a 1 LP item for example in the Nemesis mechanic, treating it differently from a 0 LP item was never asked for.
That’s a whole other topic on top.
Balance.
It would be fairly crap to say it mildly if that was the case.
Complexity is important, a specific range of complexity enforces decision-making, and decision making is a part of a challenge for a game. Your direction goes the reductionist route, a minimalist aspect. The extreme is to have a singular item which has all the variety theoretically in it since neither weapon/armor/ring or anything of that sort matters as all’s the same.
That’s a big reason why they’re different instead. Not only for the amount of slots available but also to enforce you as the player to pick those bits and bobs you want/need for each of those slots individually.
Optimally also with individual ranges, but that’s something LE still lacks in depth with their item system.
1 Like
I just want to add some clarifications:
- For CoF players the number of 0LP drops is significantly lower than 1LP drops, in relative terms (% of unique drops). In fact, 1LP drops form the (relative, if not absolute) majority of unique drops. As others confirmed above (or in another topic similar to this), their experience (as well as mine) is that 0LP is closer to 2LP (of course, 2LP drop % is still significantly under 0LP) than 1LP in terms of % of drops, at least for 250+ corruption (which coincides with the stated end-game, incidentally). A rough estimate, as I did not collect data so it’s only based on my “feeling” (though for the purpose of this thread and to dispel some misconceptions, I might just start collecting some statistics…) the % of drops is roughly:
20% 0LP
65% 1LP
10% 2LP
4.99% 3LP + 0.01% 4LP (never got a 4LP, have several 3LP drops
)
Regardless of those percentages being true or just a perception of mine, the fact is that CoF has a perk that reduces the 0LP unique drops and increases 1LP, 2LP, 3LP and 4LP drops. However, given the base chance of 2LP, 3LP and 4LP, this translates into a significant increase in 1LP drops and slightly increased 2LP drop. This perk does not add more unique drops, the increase in 1LP and 2LP drops is offset by a decrease in 0LP drops. This is a fact.
Another fact is that this is supposed to be a “perk”, meaning that overall, from a progression PoV, it is supposed to be an improvement for a CoF player. Statements like “but CoF still has enough 0LP drops” are missing the point when taking into consideration that this is supposed to be a “perk”.
- I personally do not question (at least not yet) the mechanics of Nemesis, the chances of 2LP upgrades, the chances of getting the egg etc. (personally, so far it feels like a 2LP upgrade has the same chance as a 1LP upgrade or added affixes, so roughly 33% for each. This is my personal experience, on a non-trivial base of 20 or so Nemesis eggs).
What I am complaining about is that the interaction between the CoF “perk” and Nemesis is detrimental to CoF, in relative terms, when compared to MG.
We have the following situation:
- CoF will get more 1LP uniques (implicitly less 0LP uniques) than MG relative to the unique drops of each (so % wise).
- Assume Xmg the base (non-Nemesis) % of 2LP drop for MG and Xcof the base (non-Nemesis) % of 2LP drop for CoF
- Assume Ymg the Nemesis “enhanced” (overall) % of 2LP drop for MG and Xcof the Nemesis “enhanced” (overall) % of 2LP drop for CoF
Whatever the Nemesis % of 2LP upgrades, CoF has lower overall relative chances of 2LP upgrade compared to MG when compared to the non-Nemesis 2LP chances of CoF vs MG, because such 2LP upgrade outcomes requires a 0LP base with CoF having a reduced % of drops consisting of 0LP.
=> Xcof/Xmg >> Ycof/Ymg
From my perspective this cannot be by design, since the faction that relies on the “luck of the draw” (with the Nemesis system clearly being at least partially non-deterministic) is CoF. I highly doubt that the intention was to have the Nemesis - CoF interaction actually lead to a reduction of 2LP % “drops” for CoF.
Taking into consideration the experience of players ~100 corruption (@DJSamhein), for which seemingly this does not apply (because 0LP drops still form a majority of the overall unique drops) it is even worse, with CoF players having this interaction between the CoF unique LP upgrade “perk” and Nemesis becoming more and more punishing (with fewer and fewer 0LP drops the Nemesis becomes less and less useful) the more they progress - and in my opinion this is probably the most important takeaway (for me at least), that we have currently a system that not only does not encourage progression for CoF but is actually making it less attractive.
That will depend on the uniques. Common uniques have a higher chance to get LP, rarer uniques have a higher chance of getting affixes.
Meaning that if you place a bunch of Quicksilver coils you’ll see a bunch get LP, if you place a bunch of red rings you’ll see them get affixes.
As for the rest, CoF only has less 0LP drops for the common uniques. But for those they also have high odds of dropping 2+LP. Like mentioned before, a Shroud of Obscurity has a 34% chance of rolling 2LP, which is actually better odds than you get with the egg. And you have 6.4% chance to get 3LP which isn’t likely to get with the egg.
Which means that, as CoF, you actually have a better chance to get 2+LP even for common uniques where you’re getting less 0LP ones, because it’s much more likely they will drop, whereas MG might just buy 0LP ones but it is very unlikely to get a 3+LP.
The vast majority of uniques with Nemesis rolls 1LP. A few roll 2LP. I know it’s technically possible, but I haven’t seen any 3+LP, even for common uniques.
Lastly, it should be noted that corruption has no effect on nemesis results.
Of course, depending on the unique, one might accept the risk of “bricking” it via the Nemesis or going Jurla. But as others mentioned, for some people that is not an option. For higher tier uniques, even if one would prefer going TS, they’d need to beat T4 Julra which is not possible.
Your next statement “CoF only has less 0LP drops for the common uniques” is objectively false. The CoF perk increases the chance for X LP across the board, regardless of the base chance of 0LP or XLP for each item. So, objectively, it reduces the 0LP drop chances for ALL uniques.
Your Shroud of Obscurity example is, honestly, irrelevant. What you are in effect arguing is that hey, CoF has a better chance of getting 2LP or higher drop for some items which makes it OK to not benefit from the Nemesis system which also has a chance of providing 2LP items.
As I said, you’re missing the point. The point is that CoF is supposed to have better chances of getting better items via drops (and here I include the Nemesis non-deterministic mechanics) than MG. Why? MG can “simply” buy what it needs.
1 Like
I was answering the statement that CoF has more 1LP drops than 0LP drops. In absolute terms, not relative. And this only happens to common uniques. Even with CoF rank, you will still get way more 0LP red rings or ravenous voids or other rare uniques than you will get 1+LP.
So it’s not objectively false. You just took it out of context.
However, for common uniques, this is true. You do get 1LP uniques more than 0LP ones. But you also get 2LP very often.
No, I never said that. You’re just trying to infer something that isn’t there.
In fact, my whole argument started with saying that placing 1+LP items in nemesis benefits MG more than it does CoF. And I’ve also said elsewhere that CoF ranks should apply to nemesis. But that’s not what’s being discussed here.
What I’m in effect arguing is that you will naturally drop a 2LP common unique more often than the nemesis will give you one. So you getting less 0LP items to naturally drop is more than offset by the fact that you will get plenty of 2LP drops and especially that you’re way more likely to get a 3 or 4LP drop than you ever will with nemesis.
And for rarer uniques, you still get more 0LP items than 1+LP ones, so it’s not an issue.
Yes, I never disagreed with that.
On this - if “confusion” is a concern, at least this type of confusion, that it’s a false problem.
Even right now, you can put a 0LP item, empower, get a 1LP item, empower, end up with a 1LP item. So basically, the second empower acts as if it rolled a 1LP.
I don’t know why you’re mentioning that. Like I said: “I don’t fully agree, but I do understand.”
Totally anecdotal of mine, but I’m under the impression that even for adding affixes, Nemesis follows the same kind of rule, where lower level and more common uniques have a higher chance of getting more and better affixes compared to the rarer ones.
I remember I got a Thorn Slinger with 3 affixes on a Nemesis egg on my first character during campaign day 1 this cycle, and the only other unique with 3 affixes I got from Nemesis came 3/4 weeks later.
It was actually Mike’s answer in discord. And I mixed it up. What he said was:
“Lower LPL items are more likely to get LP and higher LPL items are more likely to get affixes.”
So common uniques have a higher chance to roll legendary, rare uniques have a higher chance of getting LP.
1 Like
Yes, I’m agreeing.
Just added that even in the event the egg rolls for adding affixes, I have the impression it follow the same rule, where more common uniques have a higher chance of getting more and better affixes added to it.
Yes, that also seems likely and similar to my personal experience as well.
EDIT: I think the reasoning might be that common uniques with LP are something you’re bound to get easily enough, so rolling them as legendary is bound to be more useful, even with random affixes, whereas rare uniques will be more useful with LP instead.
Does the CoF perk increases the chances of getting better LP for uniques? It does. The chances are finite (they all add up to 100%) so the way it works is that it reduces the chance for 0LP drops and the difference is split for 1LP, 2LP, 3LP and 4LP. This is objectively true for ALL uniques.
I am not sure which context you’re framing the issue in, honestly, because the only one that makes sense (imo) is the one above. Compared to a non-CoF player, the CoF player gets less 0LP drops (provided they have the perk).
For each 100 drops for a specific unique, an MG player gets A*100 0LP items and (1-A)*100 xLP items,
For each 100 drops for a specific unique, a CoF player gets (A-perk)*100 0LP items and (1-(A-perk))*100 = (1-A+perk)*100 xLP items
- A*100 > (A-perk)*100
- (1-A)*100 < (1-A+perk)*100
*where A and perk in (0,1).
This applies to ALL unique drops, regardless of their individual LP % drop.
That there are specific items which have such a low chance of xLP so even the CoF players gets 0LP most of the time is not really relevant for the argument. Even in this situation, the increased % of xLP is offset by the reduced % of 0LP.
While I doubt the offset is linear, which means that the vast majority of the value of the offset is applied to 1LP drops, with 2LP drops getting some of it, and 3LP and 4LP drops only having a very small increase (but even if the probability distribution were linear) the fact is that the drop chances for 2LP, 3LP and 4LP decrease (exponentially iirc). This means that the offset itself will be pretty much meaningless for 3LP and 4LP, slightly visible on 2LP and of course, 1LP getting the real boost, especially for “uncommon” uniques as you qualify those items.
So however way you look at this, CoF gets less 0LP drops than an MG player. Do CoF players get unique drops more often? Yes, they do. If this is the context you’re referring to when you say that CoF “still has more 0LP drops”, I argument that it is irrelevant. Why? Because that’s how it’s supposed to be (and you consequently did agree to this).
Completly agree with that From my perspective, CoF ranks affecting Nemesis is well within the intended design of CoF.
First of - since LP % scales with corruption (as far as I know), it means CoF players will start getting “punished” with 1LP drops the more they progress, even for those uniques. True, eventually, because corruption will itself offset the 1LP high enough, CoF will start getting a lot of 2LP. But it’s still a problem - for the players to progress they need to pass through some corruption level where the game actually makes it less likely for them to get better gear.
Incidentally, the 2LP+ chances for “uncommon” uniques will still be low enough, even with the CoF perk (25*0.0001 is 0.0025… WOW ) so that 0LPs would still remain desirable (because they would still offer a better chance of getting a 2LP via the Nemesis), but the corruption increase will make 1LP prevalent while still not enough to get meaningful numbers of 2LP+.
So my counter-argument is that for what you consider “non-common” uniques, the more the CoF player progresses via corruption the worse off they are as the 1LP drops for those items will increase, with 0LP chances being decreased (almost as much as the 1LP is increased ).
Ok, I don’t think it’s worth focusing on the disagreement, or apparent disagreement here. While I understand what you’re saying (and apologies if it seemed like I take it out of context), to me this is not relevant to the whole discussion simply because what you’re emphasizing is how things are supposed to be outside the Nemesis mechanic.
So the conclusion I’m stressing (again) is that the Nemesis mechanic works against progression for CoF. The Nemesis becomes less and less usable the more the CoF player progresses.
did not want to imply it was your confusion
just wanted to mention that we have 2 empowers and we already, currently, have this situation (0LP → 1LP → 1LP) which goes against Mike’s argument that there would be confusion (1LP → 1LP).
1 Like
This actually makes the whole 1LP drop instead of 0LP drop even worse for Cof 
The context was someone saying that overall you get more 0LP uniques than 1+LP. Which is not true. You still get more 0LP uniques than 1+LP, just not for common ones.
So if you say that every 100 uniques you drop you get more 1+LP uniques, that’s not true. For every 100 uniques, 50 or more will still be 0LP ones.
That was all the context I was replying to.
It is because it was exactly that statement I was answering to. Not the overall discussion but that single statement.
It does, but minimally.
Items that are very rare to get 2+LP will still drop way more 0LP than 1LP, so you have plenty of fodder for the eggs, though.
Yes, I think this was just a misunderstanding, as I was replying to a specific statement and not the overall issue. Which then got sidetracked into a whole thing, like it usually does 
I think the difference is that currently the first empower will always change the item. So you never get a situation where you have a 0LP unique and it stays a 0 LP unique after the first empower. It either goes to 1LP or becomes a legendary.
It’s only the second empower that might not do anything, since if it rolled 1LP it now has a chance to gain 0-3 LP on the second empower.
Again, I can understand their point of view, even if I don’t really agree with it. I’m pretty sure most players aren’t aware that the first empower is an “automatic success” and that the second empower can be a failure anyway.
And it’s all in how you present it, so it wouldn’t be an issue either way.
1 Like