It's your own fault for gamers leaving the game

General
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A few others, but those are clearly not stated as opinion but as facts.

I never said that you were wrong about not liking the game. Just that this is not a game issue, it’s a game design choice. It’s how this whole discussion with you even started.
Game issues are stuff like performance drops, disconnects, game breaking bugs (like the one you mentioned with shied throw).
Game design choices are drop rates, mastery respec, no shard autopickup (which I don’t like), etc.

Game issues should be addressed. Game design choices are up to the devs.

Sorry, but this is a ridiculous statement. Much like if someone made a thread saying they like something in LE lots of people would jump in to say what they feel is bad about it (which happened as well), if you’re saying something is bad people are going to jump in and say thing they like about it.
This IS a forum. Threads get opened to introduce feedback and discussion. If only the persons that don’t like the game posted, then the devs would never know that someone does like it.

Lastly, it’s much weirder to see someone that doesn’t like a game coming to the forums to talk trash about it than it is for someone that likes it to be around.

I didn’t like D3 and all I did was stop playing it. I never once posted on their forums.

I never said you were wrong about your experiences. Just that you’re wrong about this being a game issue and not a game design choice.

I don’t reply to everyone’s posts. Just to those that state opinions as facts. Or the ones that say that it’s mandatory to change stuff I like. Or the ones that want to turn this game into a game I don’t like.
I think that’s a pretty natural thing to do.

Just again, to emphasize: I never said anything about your opinion. Just about what you presented as facts.
In fact, many times I said it’s fine to not like the game. But when I say that the game might not be for you, you throw the “gaslight” term around.
It must be sad that there are so many devs and studios out there gaslighting you for the thousands of games you don’t like and shouldn’t play.

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I don’t like certain things about the game. Enough to make me stop playing, but not enough for me to completely abandon.

You didn’t “didn’t like it” you probably hated it. I wouldn’t know.

Make a post how you like it, and list the reasons why you like it. It’s much easier for devs to check titles and sift through them instead of going deep into 150 replies threads and reading everything.
Also, you’re not just coming here to say “I like it.” Go ahead do that. It shouldn’t take 36 posts to get the message through. What you’re doing is picking apart peoples opinions, and telling them how this was designed like this, and they should -long story short- just stfu play it or not play it.

How is this a fact? It’s a statement based on numbers. I don’t have a 10 page essay proving it. From what was it? Nearly half a mil people? Now there’s only thousand on steam.

According to me, within the boundaries of my tinfoil theory. Again, you’re just picking things apart and out of context. If I feel something is a blatant ridiculous design doesn’t mean I’m spitting facts. Just what I feel about some of the game designs. Again… To claim something as a fact needs to be followed through with a working theory and methodology that everyone curious enough can replicate. It’s called the scientific method.
It’s you that take these opinions as facts. Do I sense a defensive mechanism?

Up until it starts costing them money, then they’ll be changing things.

Where did I say it was a game issue? I don’t think anyone in the forum ever said that.

Also, do you know how easy it is to change drop rate? It’s literally an sql table in all likelihood, and it’s as fast as ctrl + f and typing the player/streamer name to find their account and make the change. Tinfoil again. But it’s THAT easy. I have no proof it was done.

I have a pretty good idea how cycle games work. But the current 1k players on steam is not a healthy indicator of a good cycle game. PoE has less people than LE, yet retains much more. 15x more. They’ll be happy to get even 30k come next expansion.

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No, I went back to D3 every once in a while and played for a week. Much like I do with D4 now. I just don’t try to change the game to become appealing to me. There are literally millions of games out there. It’s much easier to simply pick games I like and interact with those than waste my time trying to make games change when I don’t enjoy them enough.

I never said you should like it. But I did say that if you don’t you just shouldn’t play it. Much like I don’t like souls games so I just don’t play them.

Saying “In my opinion, it failed to satisfy…” is an opinion. Saying “it failed to satisfy” is a statement of fact.
Also, there are plenty of players in these forums that are satisfied. And most of those come from early access, which are a vital part of their target audience. So that effectively disproves that statement.

This is just a ridiculous statement.
If I say that LE is a game, I’m stating a fact. I don’t need an essay or methodology to back it up.
If I say that the earth is round, I’m stating a fact.
If I say that the moon is made of cheese, I’m stating a fact. A stupid wrong one, but I’m stating a fact.

Now, if I say that it’s my opinion that the moon is made of cheese, then I’m not stating a fact. Wording matters.

That’s just the same thing that people have posted on PoE’s forums over and over again through the years. They didn’t change things and seem to be doing just fine.

This whole thing started because you disagreed with this.

It’s probably tied to other things like MG/CoF, but that’s irrelevant. It could be as simple as simply changing a single number on the code. That doesn’t change the fact that drop rates are how they are now because the devs (and other players) like it the way it is. It doesn’t NEED to change. You just think that the game will die if they don’t.

EDIT: You can simply play offline and use mods/edit the game files. If drop rates are all you care about, that should be easy to change for yourself.

It seems you haven’t checked PoE’s early numbers. The main reason why PoE retains more players right now is because they have a lot more endgame. Which didn’t happen until about 4 years after they launched, even though the only competition at the time was D3.

Also, PoE went from 180k to 15k in 2 months. That’s about 91% player drop rate. LE went from 250k to 5k (which is 3x less, not 15x) which is a drop rate of 98%. I’m curious why 98% at cycle end is a death knoll and 91% isn’t.

Lastly, I certainly don’t expect to have 250k players next cycle again. But I’d be surprised if it falls below 100k after 1.1 launch.

Honestly, there really is no difference between this thread and the hundreds (yes, hundreds) or similar “PoE is dead/dying” posted on their forums over the years.
In fact, lots of them are also about drop rates and loot being hard to get. Which GGG ignored and they seem to be fine.

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I guess we’ll see in two weeks. I’m extremely tired of playing semantics. Also, first find where I said that the grind is a game issue, then we talk. Without even looking I can tell you what I said, and it wasn’t that it was a game issue. You keep adding these tags to everything, trying to pick everything apart instead of just taking it for what it is. Since it’s an opinion after all.
Stop inventing things.
The grind is not a game issue. I never said it was. I said I don’t like that you can’t make any meaningful progress in a timely manner. You think it takes less time than PoE, I don’t. For me it’s far easier to get BiS in PoE. You can make progress? Good for you. Clap Clap Clap. I don’t consider increasing corruption while decreasing kill speed progress.

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Main reason I quit was me completing 800+ echos, ECHOS, and not getting even 1 level to mana strike affix to further my build which was own made.
On a new character, I had them drop every now and then. I grew tired of trying to farm for something that should be readily accessible. Huge burnout.
I came back with a shield throw build, again, trying to make my own thing, having fun, only to get slapped with dumb bugs.

There was a person just like you, who came at me about how my build sucked, it was me that was the problem, and went as far to make a completely different build using mana strike, using a wand or staff that I hate to play with, and said “here you go, see??” and the build wasn’t even as good…

I know your type and how far you’ll go to prove others wrong. I bought the game thinking I wouldn’t have to meta everything just to make it. The devs themselves said you can play however you want and you’ll still make it. If still make it means completing the campaign, then congratulations, I managed to complete it, and there’s nothing wrong with the game. But that’s as far as my build went. CoF sucked.
Then he went about how my loot filter is not setup correctly. That person, very much just like you now, kept posting reply after reply after reply, telling me how it was me that was the problem, and the game was perfectly fine the way it was.
So if this is the finished product, I’m done. It’s that simple. I’m just here waiting to see improvements on the things I dislike. If they’re done, I’ll come back. It’s that simple.

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Really? I’d really like to know when you had a max-link enchanted, max quality double corrupt for most slots. Considering that you can look at the trade and find only a few at exorbitant prices.

There is a disconnect at what players in PoE feel like is Bis gear and what players in LE feel like is BiS gear.
In PoE a unique that is enchanted and has a good corruption is considering very good and everyone’s happy with it. No one looks for the perfect unique with the perfect double corrupt affixes (even if they get a double corrupt, usually only one of them is the important one), enchanted and max quality. And rightfully so because they’re so hard to make and rare that for more than 99.9% of the players they’re just a mirage. Even though they’re the actual BiS gear you can get.
However, in LE nothing short of a 4LP will do. If you have a 3LP shackles, it’s crap because it’s not a 4LP. Only 4LP shackles are BiS. While this is true, it’s as unattainable to almost everyone as the BiS is in PoE.

That is not a person like me. I never suggest people change their builds because I’m an advocate that everyone should just play what they enjoy. Which is what I do. I don’t use meta builds, I just use builds that are fun for me.
Also, if someone did say that to you they were just ridiculously wrong, since your build has nothing to do with the frequency of affix drops.
At most I might suggest you use the “Skill shard drop rate” or “Class shard drop rate” blessings.

I’m not out to prove you wrong. This whole thing started because I said the two things you complained about were different things, one being a game issue, the other being a game design choice. Everything escalated from that.
I don’t care about your opinion. I might not agree with it, but I’ve had plenty of discussions with people I disagreed with without things escalating like you did.

Currently, pretty much any build can get to empowered monos, which is what the current endgame is.
A decent build can reach 300c, which is the devs goal for a successful one.
A broken build can do 1k+, which is something the devs say never should happen, so they’ll be nerfed.

Guess there was no need to escalate things so far, then.

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There is no irony.

I even pointed out that the same effect that I explain happens on the opposite end of the feedback (positive feedback) as well.

Nobody knows how many people like and how many people dislike LE and quit for good or will come back, only time will tell.

But from all the similar games over the last 10+ years I can savely say that all your claims are totally hyperbole.

What you described as people quitting and leaving the game is just natural to the genre and is made looked worse than it actually is because the initial spike on release was so ginormous.
LE is still at a better place that it was before 1.0 and this will only get better over time.
But with the next few season I am almost sure that we will see less huge spikes of players, but relatively speaking a better player retention, because EHG has proven tiem and time again that they do care and listen to the communtiy a lot and continue to improve the game in a way, that makes it more enjoyable overall.

Here is the current graph from steam db

And this is not even taking people playing offline fully offline into account.
Might be not many bu a few more.

Over all the game is growing and with 1.1 we will have another surge of players.
That’s jsut how it is. EHG will continue to iterate and improve.

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True. I define BiS as a build that can effortlessly wreck end-game bosses. Not the actual min-max enchants and all that stuff that can costs mirrors. There’s a reasonable expectation. In a never ending corruption like LE, I’d define BiS as something that can get you to 500 corruption, and keep you there effortlessly. There’s really no reason to go for more.
With these standards, getting “BiS” in PoE is far quicker.

Nope. Just re-read your replies to me, and you’ll see the escalation.

Yeah, I jumped the gun there, sry.

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Really? My first post to you was literally:

Was it an unreasonable post? Was it escalated? Did I attack you, your opinion or anything else? It all started here. You’re the one that kept escalating, accusing me of white knighting and gaslighting (which is funny, because according to your own definition, you’re the one currently gaslighting).

Anyway, I can see nothing will come out of this, and this is very far from still being relevant to the thread, so I’m done. Enjoy… whatever it is you enjoy.

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True, but I never directed it at you. It was a broad generalization yet again based on personal experience.
This was literally my first reply.

Then you replied to me. I replied back, then you went to pick apart my opinions, and then I connected back to what I initially said, AND THEN I accused you of gaslighting the actual issue by -all that was said above-.

You were probably a bit too heated up from replying too much that thought I’m a different person. I stand about what I said.

I just wanted to elaborate how all this started.

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What kinda logic is this??? I like the game i have every right to reply to feedback post whether i agree with that feed back or not

Players that like the game thay post also want to see the game from making them want to stop playing Pretty much what DJ was getting at when comes to game identity

Why are people here that like the game posting in feedback threads cuz they care about the game. As well as have every right to post feedback threads or even reply to them.

Feedback forms isnt ONLY for those that dislike the game

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Who’s “gaslighting” now? You were probably a little too heated up from escalating and don’t remember how it went anymore.

First, I only replied to part of your post to point out that those were two different things. I didn’t comment on any of your opinions, on any of your comments about tinfoil hats or anything. I just posted what I replayed above.
Second, after that, I made yet another post replying to you, where I didn’t once mention your opinions or your feelings. Nor did I say how you should feel or do about it.
In case you forgot, this was my second reply:

As you can see, there was no attack on you. And yet, the very first thing you said in the reply to this was:

So who escalated things?

Anyway, like I said, there’s no point in continuing this. You’ll just keep escalating and accusing of gaslighting, even though you’re misusing the word completely. So I’ll stop replying. Feel free to continue answering and also feel free to feel like you won when I stop answering.

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This is where you needed to stop.
Instead you continued.

The first “It’s your mistake” “The game was never marketed as such”. They also never commented on the “false marketing” if it was false marketing.

How do you know this? 2nd attempt at telling me what I want.

Who makes blatant factual statements now?

Do I even need to keep going? Dude just stop. I’ll certainly stop now. Last damn reply. If you can’t see it that’s on you.

You did.

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In alternative, you can also feel gay about it. If that confuses you:
2
a : happily excited : MERRY
in a gay mood
b: keenly alive and exuberant : having or inducing high spirits

You know, since you like to use old meanings for words that aren’t used for that meaning anymore.

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Its the way u worded it. That makes it a fact. Had u said

I think they failed to satisfy there target audience that would be an opinion statement

U didnt word it that way now did u?

As iv said numbers in season based games ALWAYS drop off a month in to a season.

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A fact is something that is known.
The earth is round. Fact.
Water is typically liquid. Fact.
“They failed to satisfy their target audience” is an opinion. Unless you know it for a fact? Is that sentence something that is known to be true? Has it been proven to be true? If you ask a random person “Did LE failed to satisfy their target audience” will their answer be yes?
I’m tired of talking to people who don’t know the definitions of basic words.

At most that sentence is a positive claim that needs proving. I don’t have the proof. Hence, it’s an opinion.

This whole bullshit started because people don’t know basic linguistics. If it was a fact it wouldn’t even be up for debate. THINK!

Look at this interesting thing here. A positive thread for LE, and you don’t see people who are bitching about LE up at his throat for liking the game. Or tell him how wrong he is.

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You can do any build u want. A good build is targeted around 300c. Which EHG said 300c is considered a good build.

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The build I wanted couldn’t even get past 100 corruption because of the half thought out interactivity of basic abilities they probably though nobody will use them such as mana strike, and the inability to get a single level to mana strike affix in 800+ echos. So no, I can’t do any build. I also can’t do shield throw since it’s still bugged since forever.

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Hello everyone!

Please remember to keep conversations civil. There has been a fairly significant number of inflammatory posts in this thread, which seems to be getting only more heated. The debate of how casual a game should be is an important conversation to be had, and having an extended debate to it can help bring out some of the reasons ‘why’ it may feel more “grindy” than intended for some players.

So we do support the conversation, only it needs to be a civil discourse. Because this thread has been so inflammatory, I will be closing it, however please do feel free to start up a new civil thread regarding your thoughts on how casual vs. hardcore you think LE should be.

We love seeing the passion for the game and providing feedback to help us improve Last Epoch, however, please remember to remain respectful of other users.

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