No, we’re not, and that’s exactly why you need to stop frivolously, inappropriately, and insultingly using the word “gaslighting” as a retort to anyone who disagrees with you.
You do not get to tell me to grow up when you call expressing a difference of opinion “psychological manipulation”. Be better, and stop marginalizing real victims of gaslighting by treating it like an argument trump card.
How is that any different from telling someone is wrong over and over again with no real argument aside from “I don’t like it” when the person is telling you the design is good (I like it), and telling them “no, it’s not how it’s supposed to be because I’m not suited for this game”?
You don’t like a design choice in a game. Telling you maybe you’re in the wrong game isn’t manipulation. It’s stating a fact. If you don’t like Dark Souls, do you go to the forums saying that the game should be easier because you don’t like it?
Do you do that to every game you don’t like?
I know from everything the devs have said so far, including that they really really really don’t want to make loot easier to get, and also from everything the devs have done so far, making the loot grind the way it is now for years.
Yes, that’s fine. But there are people that do like it, including the devs. Why should LE cater to you specifically?
Also, BiS gear in LE (4LP uniques) are still a lot easier to get than BiS gear in PoE (6-link enchanted, max quality, double corrupt). Hyperbole doesn’t help your case.
PoE and LE are games that appeal to people that like to grind. That like that gear isn’t easy to get like in D3/D4 because they feel that’s boring and makes them quit the game.
LE has always stood closer to PoE than D3 (and now D4) in this regard. It’s no surprise. It’s been like that for years.
So why should the game change its identity just to please you when there are already games out there that are more to your liking?
Again I ask, do you go to every forum in every game you don’t like and try to make them change the game and say that the devs/people are idiots for not doing what you want?
You keep saying you’re being gaslighted, but so far you’re the one throwing insults around.
It’s different because when you are the kind of narcissist that would accuse anyone who disagrees with you of “gaslighting”, everything you do is automatically right, and everything someone else does that you don’t like is automatically wrong.
Okay. So just to clarify. What you’re saying is that the design is set in stone, and that it should never change for nothing? Not even when players don’t like it? The devs will make the game however they want.
On one hand, I agree completely. It’s their game. They can do whatever they want with it, and I have no say in it. Hence why I stopped playing. We’re all cool here? So far? No issues? I took a reasonable action to something I don’t like. Right? I’m not playing the game.
On another hand, this forum is open to suggestions, feedback, and player thoughts. This is mine.
Now here is the problem. You. You waltz in here, with several others. Telling people how they’re wrong. Why? They’re just expressing their feedback of the game. Why are you here telling how everyone elses opinion is bad? Are you picking up what I’m putting down?
It shouldn’t.
It’s just my opinion, and from what I gather on the forums a lot of people share it. I don’t have exact numbers. If the devs don’t want to do anything about it, it’s their choice. Their game. Their rules. It’s up to me whether I play or not. I’m not.
This is a huuuuuge L take. I’ve played PoE since it released. Getting BiS is hard, but it’s not THAT hard. All you need is currency. In last epoch, no amount of currency will get you to BiS. It’s just straight up grind. Grind for affixes. Grind for 4lps. Grind for money. And if you’re playing CoF, oh buddy, good fucking luck.
It shouldn’t. It’s just my opinion.
Find me 1 insult I threw. Just because my language is harsh doesn’t mean I’m actively insulting people. What, saying “getting through that thick skull” is an insult? It’s a metaphor. It means you’re hard-headed.
If you’re unwilling to see that words have different uses, I don’t know what to tell you.
They can. Like I said, they can change the stance in the future. And the players that like the way it is now will leave.
Here is the problem. You. You waltz in here, with several others. Saying that the game design is bad and that the devs are idiots for not making something more accessible to the casual players.
From the start I’ve just said that drop rates are a design choice, not a game issue. You’re the one that kept snowballing this. I never said your opinion is bad, just that this is not a bad thing, it’s just something you don’t like. I even said that you not liking it is fine.
You’re the one that said, from the start, that drop rates as they are now are bad (your opinion, not a fact) and everyone that likes them is an idiot.
Are you picking up what I’m putting down?
See, if you had simply said that from the start, there wouldn’t even be an argument. But you didn’t state an opinion, you stated (what you saw as) a fact. And insulted people to boot.
That’s just wrong. In PoE you need to farm for currency. Which, for an absolute BiS gear, means mirror-tier currency because there simply aren’t many around (because they’re really really hard to make).
In LE you need to farm for currency (gold). Which, for an absolute BiS gear, means billions of gold. So both just need time.
If you’re CoF, yeah, it’s not likely you’ll ever get it. And yet, you’ll have a much better chance to get it, and also a better chance to even have pretty good gear (which isn’t that hard) than if you’re in PoE playing SSF.
Fair enough. I meant more as in you being aggressive and adversarial. Not actually insulting. I didn’t express myself correctly. That’s my bad.
Look…
Nobody here is claiming hard facts. Just personal experiences with the game.
You however, are completely unnecessary to the entire thread/discussion. Everyone who likes this game shouldn’t even be typing here telling how people are wrong. We’re here expressing our personal experiences. It’s not your place to tell anyone how they’re wrong, it’s not my place to tell you that you are wrong.
All you create here is discord. You like the game. You have no problems with it. Why are you here? This is a thread for those who dislike the game, and this is a thread to the devs to see their disagreements. Not a debate forum.
The reasons can be outlandish, stupid, nonsense, whatever. It’s not your place to convince people otherwise. The devs can take it as is, and can discard it as is.
Can I stop you from posting? No.
But please, for all that is good in this world, just stop. There are people who don’t like certain things about the game. They exist. It’s not your job to tell them they’re wrong. You can’t tell them they’re wrong when all they’re expressing is their personal experience with the game, experience that you’re not privy to.
What is your goal here? What are you trying to accomplish by replying to every single opinion everyone posts? Are you trying to tell them their reasons are bad and invalid? Why? How would you know when its their personal experience.
The only hard facts are the dwindling numbers. The cause? It can be anything. This is just part of it. Neither you, nor any other one player has the full picture.
What are you looking to accomplish? Should I just go “ah… look, what this person says makes sense, despite my experience in the game, I’ll just believe this person, close my eyes, and keep playing.”
I don’t get it. Stop obfuscating people’s opinions. It’s their own experience.
It seems u have no clue how cycle/season/league based diablo like games work
Ever diablo like, like this always has drops in player numbers a month in and keeps dropping till the next cycyle/season/ league starts.
U can see this exact same player drop even in poe
The current cycle has been out what now 3 months. Majority of players either pre 1.0 or 1.0 have completed all content the game has currently. Theres not much different from pre 1.0 vs 1.0. This is a huge part of the player number dropping. Many pre 1.0 have already done everything content wise
Other than faction two new classes falconer and warlock.
A few others, but those are clearly not stated as opinion but as facts.
I never said that you were wrong about not liking the game. Just that this is not a game issue, it’s a game design choice. It’s how this whole discussion with you even started.
Game issues are stuff like performance drops, disconnects, game breaking bugs (like the one you mentioned with shied throw).
Game design choices are drop rates, mastery respec, no shard autopickup (which I don’t like), etc.
Game issues should be addressed. Game design choices are up to the devs.
Sorry, but this is a ridiculous statement. Much like if someone made a thread saying they like something in LE lots of people would jump in to say what they feel is bad about it (which happened as well), if you’re saying something is bad people are going to jump in and say thing they like about it.
This IS a forum. Threads get opened to introduce feedback and discussion. If only the persons that don’t like the game posted, then the devs would never know that someone does like it.
Lastly, it’s much weirder to see someone that doesn’t like a game coming to the forums to talk trash about it than it is for someone that likes it to be around.
I didn’t like D3 and all I did was stop playing it. I never once posted on their forums.
I never said you were wrong about your experiences. Just that you’re wrong about this being a game issue and not a game design choice.
I don’t reply to everyone’s posts. Just to those that state opinions as facts. Or the ones that say that it’s mandatory to change stuff I like. Or the ones that want to turn this game into a game I don’t like.
I think that’s a pretty natural thing to do.
Just again, to emphasize: I never said anything about your opinion. Just about what you presented as facts.
In fact, many times I said it’s fine to not like the game. But when I say that the game might not be for you, you throw the “gaslight” term around.
It must be sad that there are so many devs and studios out there gaslighting you for the thousands of games you don’t like and shouldn’t play.
I don’t like certain things about the game. Enough to make me stop playing, but not enough for me to completely abandon.
You didn’t “didn’t like it” you probably hated it. I wouldn’t know.
Make a post how you like it, and list the reasons why you like it. It’s much easier for devs to check titles and sift through them instead of going deep into 150 replies threads and reading everything.
Also, you’re not just coming here to say “I like it.” Go ahead do that. It shouldn’t take 36 posts to get the message through. What you’re doing is picking apart peoples opinions, and telling them how this was designed like this, and they should -long story short- just stfu play it or not play it.
How is this a fact? It’s a statement based on numbers. I don’t have a 10 page essay proving it. From what was it? Nearly half a mil people? Now there’s only thousand on steam.
According to me, within the boundaries of my tinfoil theory. Again, you’re just picking things apart and out of context. If I feel something is a blatant ridiculous design doesn’t mean I’m spitting facts. Just what I feel about some of the game designs. Again… To claim something as a fact needs to be followed through with a working theory and methodology that everyone curious enough can replicate. It’s called the scientific method.
It’s you that take these opinions as facts. Do I sense a defensive mechanism?
Up until it starts costing them money, then they’ll be changing things.
Where did I say it was a game issue? I don’t think anyone in the forum ever said that.
Also, do you know how easy it is to change drop rate? It’s literally an sql table in all likelihood, and it’s as fast as ctrl + f and typing the player/streamer name to find their account and make the change. Tinfoil again. But it’s THAT easy. I have no proof it was done.
I have a pretty good idea how cycle games work. But the current 1k players on steam is not a healthy indicator of a good cycle game. PoE has less people than LE, yet retains much more. 15x more. They’ll be happy to get even 30k come next expansion.
No, I went back to D3 every once in a while and played for a week. Much like I do with D4 now. I just don’t try to change the game to become appealing to me. There are literally millions of games out there. It’s much easier to simply pick games I like and interact with those than waste my time trying to make games change when I don’t enjoy them enough.
I never said you should like it. But I did say that if you don’t you just shouldn’t play it. Much like I don’t like souls games so I just don’t play them.
Saying “In my opinion, it failed to satisfy…” is an opinion. Saying “it failed to satisfy” is a statement of fact.
Also, there are plenty of players in these forums that are satisfied. And most of those come from early access, which are a vital part of their target audience. So that effectively disproves that statement.
This is just a ridiculous statement.
If I say that LE is a game, I’m stating a fact. I don’t need an essay or methodology to back it up.
If I say that the earth is round, I’m stating a fact.
If I say that the moon is made of cheese, I’m stating a fact. A stupid wrong one, but I’m stating a fact.
Now, if I say that it’s my opinion that the moon is made of cheese, then I’m not stating a fact. Wording matters.
That’s just the same thing that people have posted on PoE’s forums over and over again through the years. They didn’t change things and seem to be doing just fine.
This whole thing started because you disagreed with this.
It’s probably tied to other things like MG/CoF, but that’s irrelevant. It could be as simple as simply changing a single number on the code. That doesn’t change the fact that drop rates are how they are now because the devs (and other players) like it the way it is. It doesn’t NEED to change. You just think that the game will die if they don’t.
EDIT: You can simply play offline and use mods/edit the game files. If drop rates are all you care about, that should be easy to change for yourself.
It seems you haven’t checked PoE’s early numbers. The main reason why PoE retains more players right now is because they have a lot more endgame. Which didn’t happen until about 4 years after they launched, even though the only competition at the time was D3.
Also, PoE went from 180k to 15k in 2 months. That’s about 91% player drop rate. LE went from 250k to 5k (which is 3x less, not 15x) which is a drop rate of 98%. I’m curious why 98% at cycle end is a death knoll and 91% isn’t.
Lastly, I certainly don’t expect to have 250k players next cycle again. But I’d be surprised if it falls below 100k after 1.1 launch.
Honestly, there really is no difference between this thread and the hundreds (yes, hundreds) or similar “PoE is dead/dying” posted on their forums over the years.
In fact, lots of them are also about drop rates and loot being hard to get. Which GGG ignored and they seem to be fine.
I guess we’ll see in two weeks. I’m extremely tired of playing semantics. Also, first find where I said that the grind is a game issue, then we talk. Without even looking I can tell you what I said, and it wasn’t that it was a game issue. You keep adding these tags to everything, trying to pick everything apart instead of just taking it for what it is. Since it’s an opinion after all.
Stop inventing things.
The grind is not a game issue. I never said it was. I said I don’t like that you can’t make any meaningful progress in a timely manner. You think it takes less time than PoE, I don’t. For me it’s far easier to get BiS in PoE. You can make progress? Good for you. Clap Clap Clap. I don’t consider increasing corruption while decreasing kill speed progress.
Main reason I quit was me completing 800+ echos, ECHOS, and not getting even 1 level to mana strike affix to further my build which was own made.
On a new character, I had them drop every now and then. I grew tired of trying to farm for something that should be readily accessible. Huge burnout.
I came back with a shield throw build, again, trying to make my own thing, having fun, only to get slapped with dumb bugs.
There was a person just like you, who came at me about how my build sucked, it was me that was the problem, and went as far to make a completely different build using mana strike, using a wand or staff that I hate to play with, and said “here you go, see??” and the build wasn’t even as good…
I know your type and how far you’ll go to prove others wrong. I bought the game thinking I wouldn’t have to meta everything just to make it. The devs themselves said you can play however you want and you’ll still make it. If still make it means completing the campaign, then congratulations, I managed to complete it, and there’s nothing wrong with the game. But that’s as far as my build went. CoF sucked.
Then he went about how my loot filter is not setup correctly. That person, very much just like you now, kept posting reply after reply after reply, telling me how it was me that was the problem, and the game was perfectly fine the way it was.
So if this is the finished product, I’m done. It’s that simple. I’m just here waiting to see improvements on the things I dislike. If they’re done, I’ll come back. It’s that simple.
Really? I’d really like to know when you had a max-link enchanted, max quality double corrupt for most slots. Considering that you can look at the trade and find only a few at exorbitant prices.
There is a disconnect at what players in PoE feel like is Bis gear and what players in LE feel like is BiS gear.
In PoE a unique that is enchanted and has a good corruption is considering very good and everyone’s happy with it. No one looks for the perfect unique with the perfect double corrupt affixes (even if they get a double corrupt, usually only one of them is the important one), enchanted and max quality. And rightfully so because they’re so hard to make and rare that for more than 99.9% of the players they’re just a mirage. Even though they’re the actual BiS gear you can get.
However, in LE nothing short of a 4LP will do. If you have a 3LP shackles, it’s crap because it’s not a 4LP. Only 4LP shackles are BiS. While this is true, it’s as unattainable to almost everyone as the BiS is in PoE.
That is not a person like me. I never suggest people change their builds because I’m an advocate that everyone should just play what they enjoy. Which is what I do. I don’t use meta builds, I just use builds that are fun for me.
Also, if someone did say that to you they were just ridiculously wrong, since your build has nothing to do with the frequency of affix drops.
At most I might suggest you use the “Skill shard drop rate” or “Class shard drop rate” blessings.
I’m not out to prove you wrong. This whole thing started because I said the two things you complained about were different things, one being a game issue, the other being a game design choice. Everything escalated from that.
I don’t care about your opinion. I might not agree with it, but I’ve had plenty of discussions with people I disagreed with without things escalating like you did.
Currently, pretty much any build can get to empowered monos, which is what the current endgame is.
A decent build can reach 300c, which is the devs goal for a successful one.
A broken build can do 1k+, which is something the devs say never should happen, so they’ll be nerfed.
Guess there was no need to escalate things so far, then.
There is no irony.
I even pointed out that the same effect that I explain happens on the opposite end of the feedback (positive feedback) as well.
Nobody knows how many people like and how many people dislike LE and quit for good or will come back, only time will tell.
But from all the similar games over the last 10+ years I can savely say that all your claims are totally hyperbole.
What you described as people quitting and leaving the game is just natural to the genre and is made looked worse than it actually is because the initial spike on release was so ginormous.
LE is still at a better place that it was before 1.0 and this will only get better over time.
But with the next few season I am almost sure that we will see less huge spikes of players, but relatively speaking a better player retention, because EHG has proven tiem and time again that they do care and listen to the communtiy a lot and continue to improve the game in a way, that makes it more enjoyable overall.
Here is the current graph from steam db
And this is not even taking people playing offline fully offline into account.
Might be not many bu a few more.
Over all the game is growing and with 1.1 we will have another surge of players.
That’s jsut how it is. EHG will continue to iterate and improve.
True. I define BiS as a build that can effortlessly wreck end-game bosses. Not the actual min-max enchants and all that stuff that can costs mirrors. There’s a reasonable expectation. In a never ending corruption like LE, I’d define BiS as something that can get you to 500 corruption, and keep you there effortlessly. There’s really no reason to go for more.
With these standards, getting “BiS” in PoE is far quicker.
Nope. Just re-read your replies to me, and you’ll see the escalation.
Yeah, I jumped the gun there, sry.
Really? My first post to you was literally:
Was it an unreasonable post? Was it escalated? Did I attack you, your opinion or anything else? It all started here. You’re the one that kept escalating, accusing me of white knighting and gaslighting (which is funny, because according to your own definition, you’re the one currently gaslighting).
Anyway, I can see nothing will come out of this, and this is very far from still being relevant to the thread, so I’m done. Enjoy… whatever it is you enjoy.
True, but I never directed it at you. It was a broad generalization yet again based on personal experience.
This was literally my first reply.
Then you replied to me. I replied back, then you went to pick apart my opinions, and then I connected back to what I initially said, AND THEN I accused you of gaslighting the actual issue by -all that was said above-.
You were probably a bit too heated up from replying too much that thought I’m a different person. I stand about what I said.
I just wanted to elaborate how all this started.
What kinda logic is this??? I like the game i have every right to reply to feedback post whether i agree with that feed back or not
Players that like the game thay post also want to see the game from making them want to stop playing Pretty much what DJ was getting at when comes to game identity
Why are people here that like the game posting in feedback threads cuz they care about the game. As well as have every right to post feedback threads or even reply to them.
Feedback forms isnt ONLY for those that dislike the game
Who’s “gaslighting” now? You were probably a little too heated up from escalating and don’t remember how it went anymore.
First, I only replied to part of your post to point out that those were two different things. I didn’t comment on any of your opinions, on any of your comments about tinfoil hats or anything. I just posted what I replayed above.
Second, after that, I made yet another post replying to you, where I didn’t once mention your opinions or your feelings. Nor did I say how you should feel or do about it.
In case you forgot, this was my second reply:
As you can see, there was no attack on you. And yet, the very first thing you said in the reply to this was:
So who escalated things?
Anyway, like I said, there’s no point in continuing this. You’ll just keep escalating and accusing of gaslighting, even though you’re misusing the word completely. So I’ll stop replying. Feel free to continue answering and also feel free to feel like you won when I stop answering.