If you would like to limit trade, then sure… there are probably a 1000 ways you can do that effectivly, from a special currency that let you trade items, or a special currency that would let you list an item to a randomize people’s shop…
But my point here I am trying to make is more about your first paragraph,
That you don’t want the game to be balanced around trade.
Lets talk about it… can you elborate on why you don’t want the game to be balanced around trade?
Sure because I really like
the connection to my items
Finding the upgrades myself
I don’t like:
With unrestricted trade whatever trade website turns into a npc vendor with every possible upgrade. It just makes the game to easy to reduce into currency per HR.
Oh then I believe, if I understood you correctly, that you have missed my point.
“With unrestricted trade whatever trade website turns into a npc vendor with every possible upgrade. It just makes the game to easy to reduce into currency per HR.”
That is exactly why the game needs development before it incorperate trading. That is why trading won’t work right now and I would agree to that.
Again, I am not talking about full trading in the current state of the game, that will absolutly won’t work, no question about it.
I don’t see how adding affix could fix it. All those things are important to me.
Adding affixes sounds like diluting the pool and watering down the items that do drop and making it worse to find upgrades.
In the original post you asked
But never gave an answer. I think these are the questions that need to be answered first before so many resources are spent making these changes.
“Adding affixes sounds like diluting the pool and watering down the items that do drop and making it worse to find upgrades.”
That was an example, I specifically made it bold not to be confused with a real thing… that whole list is an example.
“But never gave an answer. I think these are the questions that need to be answered first before so many resources are spent making these changes.”
These are the questions the devs needs to ask after they compile their own list of changes, which may or may not include changes to affixes.
Yes of course there are resources that needs to go into that, they need to answer if its worth it.
It just my opinion on the apporch that needs to be taken.
It’s been a while, it didn’t seem that way to me.
So since Last Epoch is still “in flux/motion/etc.” and is also developing accordingly on this topic and we have already touched on this subject a few times, I can only recommend that you have a look at least once “there” (see “Links”).
Briefly:
Due to the expected development, it is difficult for me to repeat all the arguments here for a bunch of unlaid eggs.
Yes, I brifely went over the trading topics. That is also why I added notion that I can’t find any “active” discussion.
I do believe that trading is incredibly important and needs to be done right, and not just “the best that we can do it without destroying our game”
But the other way around, developing the game with the idea to allow full trading in the future. Which means taking decision, regarding items, crafting etc, with the idea that one day you will have full trading and if the decisions that you are making today will work with that.
Why do you think the game is taking the mediocre approach with restricted trading?
(Also fyi if you want to quote something highlight it then there is a quote button. It makes the formatting really nice. If that doesn’t work you can type: [/quote] at the beginning and end of the section.
Thanks.
Because they are not making the effort to make full trading work. They are slapping trading that works.
Why wouldn’t trade work in the current state of the game? Sorry if you’ve already stated that in the original post.
IMO the only difference between the game as it is now and the game as it will be with multiplayer/trade (class/skill balance notwithstanding) is the lack of people. I’m just not sure what you think is going to change between now and then.
Edit: also ignoring the backend/technical changes that would be required for mp/trade.
I know this was broached in the other threads but what is the appeal of trading to you? Why does the game need it?
I see the appeal of party trading and the Bazar could be a cool spot to go window-shopping, but unrestricted trading sounds like ordering something on Amazon. I buy bc I need it.
Yes, you’re not the first to feel that way.
The point is, this has already been discussed a few times… now everyone is waiting for 0.9.0 MP and then we’ll see if it’s good enough and ok.
This just isn’t true. EHG’s main post on trading is very clear that its 100% intentional that you cannot openly trade in LE, because EHG wants the best items to be gotten by playing the game, not trading. It’s not a mistake, and it’s not lack of effort to solve some problem. It’s intentional design.
Like Nerdherdv has stated,
In the current state of the game if you implement full trading you will have every item that you want in mere hours. Heck, Ive maxed out a character with all the items that I want in two days.
What will change is how intericate items are. You will have more items, more affixes, more tiers etc etc that it will be difficult to find an exact item.
Or maybe something else that the devs will come up with, I am not sure.
Trading for me is, (ill emphsize the “for me” part) 90% of the multiplayer expierence.
You can look at the game at its current state, I am a player who plays 1-3 buils tops. and there is the monolith which gives me almost 0 reason to go through it right? lets say I play a sorc, what I am gonna do with the epic dagger reward? polearms? etc etc
What I am gonna do with the gold?
I personnaly like to find good items to trade in order to add a tool for upgrading my own gear.
Finding the ultimate item means nothing if you don’t use it. And you don’t use it if its not right for you and you don’t have trade.
But that just personal perfrence I guess.
You can wait, Id like to discuss it now 
Not saying its not intentional, that being intentional is part of the issue.
They can make the effort to make both the claims true, have open trade and have the best items being aquire through playing the game.
And whos to say that trading isn’t playing the game?
I think this is our core difference. If I find something cool I will find a build to use it whereas you want a way to convert it into something for your character.
I suppose it is the same for me but as a % of the overall game i would say I like it being very small 5%.
I say trading is not playing the game. Its trading. Its downtime. Its an alternate activity. If EHG decided to add an NPC at the “End of Time” which opened a Tetris window, and you could play Tetris inside of LE, is playing Tetris playing LE? I mean, its inside LE as part of the game, so isn’t it LE? No, it’s not. It’s Tetris. Having some other activity which can be done inside of the game does not automatically make that activity part of the game.
This isn’t black and white. Will the proposed Bazaar be “part of the game”? I mean, you go to an area, see player shops, browse, maybe buy an item or two. Open your shop, post up a few items, then go back to Monos or Arena. Did you just “stop” playing the game to do that, or does that count as just a “part” of the game? It’s easy to simply denote anything inside of the LE game as part of the game, and you wouldn’t be technically wrong. But if LE was just trading windows with no monsters, monos, arena, etc. would it be an ARPG or would it be a Trade Simulator?
Game identity is important. I don’t want to play a Trade Simulator. I want to play an ARPG. I want to smash monsters for loot. As long as I can create builds and gear up those builds by smashing monsters for loot, I can’t conceive of a reason why I’d need Trade. Trade’s only purpose is to gain items you cannot get (or can’t get reasonably) by smashing monsters for loot. Saying trade is it’s own fun activity that some people enjoy holds no water. Because some people enjoy Tetris, and it is just as unreasonable to ask EHG to add that Tetris NPC as it is to ask them to add Trading. Or Fishing. Or Housing. Or anything else that isn’t “smashing monsters for loot.” If EHG devs are going to spend hours coding, I want that coding to produce more ways for me to smash monsters for loot, not side games/side activities. And that’s because this is an ARPG.
You’re almost funny, don’t let that hold you back. 
“Path of Trade” was rather nerdy after a certain point, but there are pure MP economic simulations for that.
…just that with the PoT I wanted to get rid of, that is, according to my understanding, in the end a similar miserable affair as a real money auction house ala D3 at the time.
Over and out.
(hopefully ^^)
So, there are a few underlying economic principles to consider regarding trade. Then, there is the “experience”. I’m not sure what games you played that you had such a wonderful experience trading items, but most of the ARPGs and MMORPGs I have played left a bad taste in my mouth metaphorically speaking.
Let’s start with Econ 101. Supply and demand. If you have too much supply then demand is negatively impacted. This mostly negates the purpose of trading since you can just find things yourself 99% of the time. In order to rectify that, supply is artificially diminished to encourage trade. What subsequently happens almost every time, is that there ends up being a small handful of people and bots that control the marketplace. You can curtail this with annoying restrictions, but even if you made it perfectly balanced it is still inherently skewed towards those who get lucky drops. POE is a great example of this. I played with a friend a couple years back and we both went through the season at the same time. I had more playtime, but my friend got an item that shot his progression ahead by MONTHS, literal months. It was like winning the lottery. He didn’t earn it, it just happened. Yet I got jack squat. Why was I being penalized even though I had played more and advanced further?
Now, to be fair, I get RNG and how it relates to drops and I am okay with certain levels of inequality between players. What I am not okay with is a lottery system to gear my characters. If I want an item, I should be able to obtain it with a certain range of time and effort. The only time trade benefits me is if I end up being an odd outlier to the expected outcome of a specific item and can mitigate that through commerce. The problem is that outliers are a niche that cannot be served by large, active trading community since it it diametrically opposed to a formula of itemization whereby the vast majority of players can reasonably obtain what they want. Therefore, I submit that the solution to this is not to fiddle with trading, but to create a system in-game that facilitates the targeted acquisition of specific items.
On the topic of getting specific items, Marvel Heroes (a once phenomenal ARPG) had 0 trading. Each person got their own items and that was that. Instanced loot was great and progression happened by doing activities such as weekly events, raids, and other endgame content to acquire a specific resource. This resource could be traded for blueprints that allowed the player to spend credits to upgrade their items to a higher ilvl. You could also exchange uniques for a random unique. There were later ways to influence the outcome, such as trading 4 weapons for a weapon or 4 boots for boots. And if you traded character-specific uniques that’s what you got, but if you trade ubiquitous uniques then that was what you got, or if you traded a mix then the outcome was random. As you got into harder content, you received so many that you could roll until you received what you wanted. This was not my favorite system, but it worked and trading in this fantastic ARPG was not a thing. The ROOT problem of supply and demand for itemization was addressed.
I have also played games where auction houses existed. Many many many MANY games have had those or some form of those. Player shops and peer-to-peer trading is also a thing, but the auction house is the pinnacle of trade. I think we all can recognize that the problems with that system is that it disincentivizes you to PLAY THE GAME, which is why we are all here (I should hope) in the first place. It is far more lucrative to play the auction house. Moving to lesser trading options, like the previously mentioned player shops and person-to-person trading, slows down the pace of monopolistic acquisition. It also becomes a pain in the rear to get something you want. You also have to worry about scams. D2 was a game I traded heavily in for a long time. The arbitrage opportunities of the undeveloped trading system presented a fun minigame of going channel to channel and hunting for bargains. I assume this shoppers high is what you ultimately seek in some fashion. The downside is that it was time-consuming and you had to be wary of people trying weird ways to jack your items or rip you off. There are measures you can implement and Warframe actually does a reasonably good job of limiting trade. It is the closest example of any multiplayer game I can think of that has stable-ish trade. Even then, it is far from perfect. It’s annoying to use, you have to have a 3rd party website, and you still have to check everything over and make sure you aren’t being tricked or ripped off. This raises the question - why do I even use it then? Well, that’s easy. The answer is because the time and effort to go farm some pain in the butt items I want can easily be negated with a few bucks in IRL currency. That is not what this game needs and the ONLY reason it’s such a pain to farm these items and so time-consuming is because it was artificially prolonged and obfuscated to encourage people to spend real money. That’s a terrible system, ESPECIALLY for a game you have to buy outright.
As for negative trading experiences, I could talk your ear off with the shenanigans I have gone through in a veritable cornucopia of online games. Off the top of my head, there are “drop” trades for important or restricted items, players swapping out items that look similar, having trades cancelled then restarted multiple times to trick you, doing enchantments that don’t stick but take your gold, being bombarded by fraudulent trade requests in neutral areas, playing the “I can’t trade this in the window for X reason so give me the money first”, or any number of other asinine attempts at thievery. I am not looking for another round of those problems or trolls that simply want to waste everybody’s time. Even auction houses are not immune to such things. In most online games there are things you have to be on guard for, like decimal point finagling or listing a bunch of the same item in one currency then having the last stack be in a massively different denomination of currency.
My point with all of this is that trading does not just “happen”, which you have already acknowledged. It requires changes that make the game WORSE for players in order to facilitate monetization or a valid, functional trading economy. I do not want that in my ARPGs. It either leads to lottery drops, AH simulator, or shady back-alley deals where you hope you don’t get e-mugged. Some people like the thrill of that stuff, but I would much rather just play the game and enjoy it for what it is. If you want to have a system whereby you can trade items you find with friends in a VERY limited fashion then I believe that could be an acceptable compromise. However, having large, open trading systems alters the game too much in too many negative ways to be worth it in my humble opinion.
While I agree with the sentiment of wanted to play an ARPG, i think you are making it a little hyperbolic. I think there are some really cool games with player driven economies but I just don’t want to turn LE into that.
I should come clean and say the reason I dislike trade is bc it was the reason harvest had to die. LE has a similar feel of find /make something cool and use it.
You are getting a bit philosophical I feel.
if the Tetris is in LE then playing it is playing LE… but now I am getting into that philosophical disccusion…back to the point!
Smashing monsters for loot is the core, and should remain the core of LE (and pretty much most ARPGs)
And trading will have a hand in the goal, it will provide with items or resources to smash the monsters, so its not out of the question like tetris. tetris won’t do that. or fishing, or housing…
Its not “not part of the game”.