You’re almost funny, don’t let that hold you back. 
“Path of Trade” was rather nerdy after a certain point, but there are pure MP economic simulations for that.
…just that with the PoT I wanted to get rid of, that is, according to my understanding, in the end a similar miserable affair as a real money auction house ala D3 at the time.
Over and out.
(hopefully ^^)
So, there are a few underlying economic principles to consider regarding trade. Then, there is the “experience”. I’m not sure what games you played that you had such a wonderful experience trading items, but most of the ARPGs and MMORPGs I have played left a bad taste in my mouth metaphorically speaking.
Let’s start with Econ 101. Supply and demand. If you have too much supply then demand is negatively impacted. This mostly negates the purpose of trading since you can just find things yourself 99% of the time. In order to rectify that, supply is artificially diminished to encourage trade. What subsequently happens almost every time, is that there ends up being a small handful of people and bots that control the marketplace. You can curtail this with annoying restrictions, but even if you made it perfectly balanced it is still inherently skewed towards those who get lucky drops. POE is a great example of this. I played with a friend a couple years back and we both went through the season at the same time. I had more playtime, but my friend got an item that shot his progression ahead by MONTHS, literal months. It was like winning the lottery. He didn’t earn it, it just happened. Yet I got jack squat. Why was I being penalized even though I had played more and advanced further?
Now, to be fair, I get RNG and how it relates to drops and I am okay with certain levels of inequality between players. What I am not okay with is a lottery system to gear my characters. If I want an item, I should be able to obtain it with a certain range of time and effort. The only time trade benefits me is if I end up being an odd outlier to the expected outcome of a specific item and can mitigate that through commerce. The problem is that outliers are a niche that cannot be served by large, active trading community since it it diametrically opposed to a formula of itemization whereby the vast majority of players can reasonably obtain what they want. Therefore, I submit that the solution to this is not to fiddle with trading, but to create a system in-game that facilitates the targeted acquisition of specific items.
On the topic of getting specific items, Marvel Heroes (a once phenomenal ARPG) had 0 trading. Each person got their own items and that was that. Instanced loot was great and progression happened by doing activities such as weekly events, raids, and other endgame content to acquire a specific resource. This resource could be traded for blueprints that allowed the player to spend credits to upgrade their items to a higher ilvl. You could also exchange uniques for a random unique. There were later ways to influence the outcome, such as trading 4 weapons for a weapon or 4 boots for boots. And if you traded character-specific uniques that’s what you got, but if you trade ubiquitous uniques then that was what you got, or if you traded a mix then the outcome was random. As you got into harder content, you received so many that you could roll until you received what you wanted. This was not my favorite system, but it worked and trading in this fantastic ARPG was not a thing. The ROOT problem of supply and demand for itemization was addressed.
I have also played games where auction houses existed. Many many many MANY games have had those or some form of those. Player shops and peer-to-peer trading is also a thing, but the auction house is the pinnacle of trade. I think we all can recognize that the problems with that system is that it disincentivizes you to PLAY THE GAME, which is why we are all here (I should hope) in the first place. It is far more lucrative to play the auction house. Moving to lesser trading options, like the previously mentioned player shops and person-to-person trading, slows down the pace of monopolistic acquisition. It also becomes a pain in the rear to get something you want. You also have to worry about scams. D2 was a game I traded heavily in for a long time. The arbitrage opportunities of the undeveloped trading system presented a fun minigame of going channel to channel and hunting for bargains. I assume this shoppers high is what you ultimately seek in some fashion. The downside is that it was time-consuming and you had to be wary of people trying weird ways to jack your items or rip you off. There are measures you can implement and Warframe actually does a reasonably good job of limiting trade. It is the closest example of any multiplayer game I can think of that has stable-ish trade. Even then, it is far from perfect. It’s annoying to use, you have to have a 3rd party website, and you still have to check everything over and make sure you aren’t being tricked or ripped off. This raises the question - why do I even use it then? Well, that’s easy. The answer is because the time and effort to go farm some pain in the butt items I want can easily be negated with a few bucks in IRL currency. That is not what this game needs and the ONLY reason it’s such a pain to farm these items and so time-consuming is because it was artificially prolonged and obfuscated to encourage people to spend real money. That’s a terrible system, ESPECIALLY for a game you have to buy outright.
As for negative trading experiences, I could talk your ear off with the shenanigans I have gone through in a veritable cornucopia of online games. Off the top of my head, there are “drop” trades for important or restricted items, players swapping out items that look similar, having trades cancelled then restarted multiple times to trick you, doing enchantments that don’t stick but take your gold, being bombarded by fraudulent trade requests in neutral areas, playing the “I can’t trade this in the window for X reason so give me the money first”, or any number of other asinine attempts at thievery. I am not looking for another round of those problems or trolls that simply want to waste everybody’s time. Even auction houses are not immune to such things. In most online games there are things you have to be on guard for, like decimal point finagling or listing a bunch of the same item in one currency then having the last stack be in a massively different denomination of currency.
My point with all of this is that trading does not just “happen”, which you have already acknowledged. It requires changes that make the game WORSE for players in order to facilitate monetization or a valid, functional trading economy. I do not want that in my ARPGs. It either leads to lottery drops, AH simulator, or shady back-alley deals where you hope you don’t get e-mugged. Some people like the thrill of that stuff, but I would much rather just play the game and enjoy it for what it is. If you want to have a system whereby you can trade items you find with friends in a VERY limited fashion then I believe that could be an acceptable compromise. However, having large, open trading systems alters the game too much in too many negative ways to be worth it in my humble opinion.
While I agree with the sentiment of wanted to play an ARPG, i think you are making it a little hyperbolic. I think there are some really cool games with player driven economies but I just don’t want to turn LE into that.
I should come clean and say the reason I dislike trade is bc it was the reason harvest had to die. LE has a similar feel of find /make something cool and use it.
You are getting a bit philosophical I feel.
if the Tetris is in LE then playing it is playing LE… but now I am getting into that philosophical disccusion…back to the point!
Smashing monsters for loot is the core, and should remain the core of LE (and pretty much most ARPGs)
And trading will have a hand in the goal, it will provide with items or resources to smash the monsters, so its not out of the question like tetris. tetris won’t do that. or fishing, or housing…
Its not “not part of the game”.
When it comes to loot, there are really only two fundamental possibilities:
or
What sane, rational person would choose 1 over 2?
You can’t have unrestricted trade along side the best items only dropping from mobs. If an item only drops from mobs & can’t be traded then trade isn’t unrestricted. And if you can get the best items via trade then people will use that as an easier route than to kill whatever difficult boss drops it or spending enough time to get it to drop.
And when the devs say “best items available through playing the game”, they mean “from killing mobs”.
@KaiDKB Supply doesn’t impact demand, it impacts the price.
@Llama8 If you have all of the items you need, you no longer need more items. Supply and demand are often correlated with price as a medium, but there still exists a direct relationship. Sticking to LE, demand is finite on a per-character, per-build basis. If you have the supply, the demand has been met and no longer exists.
As it pertains to my previous post, demand for items is larger when people do not have items they want. That demand decreases when they get those items. They get those items through supply. As supply increases, demand is met and the overall demand decreases. This can get more convoluted since people constantly create new characters and items constantly drop. However, demand is temporal if it is satiated. If you upped the drop rate (and thus the supply) for uniques by 18,000% then demand for uniques would sharply decrease across the board.
Alright a lot to unpack.
I don’t know what changes are required in order to make trading functional. The list I gave was just an example and I don’t know if it would make it worse.
Like I stated, these are the kinda of questions that the devs/product need to answer. I wrote - Will it add to the game? Will it decrease from the game? If so, how much will it decrease from the game compared to how much trading will add to the game?
This is not for me or you to answer…We don’t know what changes, and even if we do we wouldn’t exactly know if it makes thing worse or not.
Next point - the shady deals.
Agree, you can look at PoE and the way they are doing trading for example. Its a full blown trading, they have API, its like an auction house but they want to"focus on the items" and not trading so they don’t do an auction house. which is kinda wierd… you are almost there.
Ill disagree with their solution they say - you can have any items on the trading market but you need to spam 100 players to get it until someone answer you, and you can get scammed.
This is their way of combating the “playing the auction house” claim… I don’t know about that.
Now for the lottery system:
Ill disagree here, Id like to play the game knowing that any moment which may never come, I might drop that one item…but thats just me. That will happen anyway you look at it to some extent.
If we don’t end up having any sort of trade, I can see my stash being filled up with items… good items, that will never get used. And what will we be farming for? super spesific items. I don’t need that T25 sword or whatever, im gonna filter it out.
I don’t need these sword node reward… or polearms or about any of these nodes execpet for wands for example… why would I go through the monolith?
I don’t know what changes are required in order to make trading functional. The list I gave was just an example and I don’t know if it would make it worse.
Like I stated, these are the kinda of questions that the devs/product need to answer. I wrote - Will it add to the game? Will it decrease from the game? If so, how much will it decrease from the game compared to how much trading will add to the game?
I would (and have) said that it will detract from the game and directly decrease enjoyment in the majority of scenarios. I can see where it would add to the game in limited instances (as the one I pointed out in my last post), but again - it is inherently mutually exclusive with trade economies.
This is not for me or you to answer…We don’t know what changes, and even if we do we wouldn’t exactly know if it makes thing worse or not.
I respectfully disagree with you on this. I have played enough ARPGs and online game in general to have a broad range of experience. Couple that with the entire human history of trade and we can make some pretty educated guesses. I cannot universally say that there is no way whatsoever to implement a functional trading system that will magically work when all of the variables are tweaked and caveats addressed. I can merely point to a multitude of inefficient, flawed, and/or failed systems, analyze those, and make reasonable assessments regarding the feasibility of such a system. Do note, however, that I am a strong proponent of forgoing such a system entirely as the reason it exists can be accounted for and solved to a palatable level that can be improved with iterations which would require less work than implementing a feasible trading system that does not punish players on a noticeable level in some way, shape, or form.
I’m glad you agree about the shady deals thing. I got tired of POE and that was one of the reasons I left.
Now for the lottery system:
Ill disagree here, Id like to play the game knowing that any moment which may never come, I might drop that one item…but thats just me. That will happen anyway you look at it to some extent.
I’ll concede that you may actually enjoy such things. It’s basically akin to the gambler’s high. However, having things of such value means that you will always have to settle for mediocrity and often by a sizeable margin. Where the rubber meets the road is how important such items are to a decent build. Since we both played POE, you can hopefully attest that getting a mirror is fantastic, but it lets you get a 6-link chest and weapon along with enough currency to outfit your character in endgame gear and trivialize mapping unless your build is garbage. That is WAY too much for a single drop. Similarly, if you want to do a lot of the stronger builds then you will need certain items that are really hard to come by. In fact, the likelihood of getting them yourself is extremely small. You are forced to get them through trading 99% of the time. You may enjoy that. I do not. The problem is that currently trading does not exist in LE. If we were to copy the same system as POE, it would fundamentally change how we acquire items in LE. We disagree on whether or not that is good, but what I want to know is why do we need to do this? What is wrong with the current system that necessitates taking drops from all players and making them scarce enough so that people need a trading system? You might find it fun, but I would find other systems fun that you would not enjoy. It actually goes back to the Tetris discussion you were having with Zaodon. It might be fun for some, but it is not necessary and actually directly takes fun away from others.
This question leads me to your next point:
If we don’t end up having any sort of trade, I can see my stash being filled up with items… good items, that will never get used. And what will we be farming for? super spesific items. I don’t need that T25 sword or whatever, im gonna filter it out.
I don’t need these sword node reward… or polearms or about any of these nodes execpet for wands for example… why would I go through the monolith?
The answer to this is to create a use for such items. Alts is the biggest one and seasons will also help. The new legendary items coming up seem to suggest that you will sacrifice items in some form to fuel, craft, or otherwise modify/enhance legendary items. It is possible to create systems that use duplicates (like uniques) to directly benefit a character because they have already existed in other ARPGs (Marvel Heroes being a great example). This is easier than creating, balancing, and sustaining trading across players and does not necessitate nerfing drop rates, which would negatively impact the baseline ability to gear characters to a reasonable level.
I disagree with that.
The trading system needs to be very well designed, I agree with that.
The trading system is important, I agree with that.
The trading system is a core element of the game, I think not. Not considering how itemization is in Last Epoch. You may be right for games like Wolcen for example, but I think it’s different in LE.
That’s your opinion.
My opinion is that trading isn’t necessary provided the crafting system is rational.
LE has an extremely good start to such a system.
And I know what I’m going to hear, but, but, a trading system is required.
No, it’s not.
What will happen if there isn’t trading ? People who wanted it won’t play this game and those of us who didn’t want trading will continue to play it and enjoy it.
That’s ok. A game doesn’t have to be all things to all people. I would argue that trying to make it all things to all people is the surest path to something nobody likes.
Yeah, so do I. So we both left because there wasn’t an auction house.
No no no… That is not what I meant… You shouldn’t take items from everyone and make them scarce just because you implemented trade.
In fact, you should have a cycle for solo and for trading.
As for the Tetris, unless its somehow mandatory to do (which trade shouldn’t be) how is that directly taking away from other players? You can Tetris, I don’t mind.
Myself, and I am guessing other players as well, don’t like to have a character with every class. Some of us enjoy 1-2 playstyles.
I would like to see that, but again, not my point to nerf drop rates or do something that other players will suffer from.
You didn’t state why you disagree with the statement that an auction house is the most convenient way of trading? Note that the statement just says its the most convenient and player friendly, it doesn’t state anything about the game breaking stuff we are discussing.
Everything I said is my opinion, I stated it multiple times not to create any confusion regarding the fact that its my own opinion.
Yes, trading is not necessary. But in my opinion its what will take the game from a nice game to the next level.
No, its not.
Thats one thing probably, yeah.
But, can you say it the other way around? Maybe… Not for sure.
What if they add, in addition to arena and the monolith more content, lets say the dungeons, that you are not going to like.
I would say that the game in the current state has some stuff that people like and people don’t like. Adding something, anything, should be done right not to hurt the game in the current status and add to that game. And if its hurting some of the players then it should minimize the impact, no doubt.
you did, my bad on how i phrased that.
btw, it may be that your opinion is the one shared by the majority and that there will be trading. And then i’ll have to decide whether it’s still a game i want to play.
Regardless, you are very right in that trading is a big deal, if present, and so discussions around lessons learned from other games is certainly useful.
well there is a fundamental difference in that it’s very likely the existence of trading leads to systemic changes in the game that are due to the existence of trading, e.g. you probably implement the crafting system to take into account the existence of trading.
if i don’t like dungeons, i don’t have to play them. HOWEVER, the same thing could happen. Changes to the game are made because dungeons exist, and now I have to run around in dungeons or else something in my game “experience” will suffer. I think it’s less likely than if trading exists, but the same argument is certainly valid for really any aspect f the game.
also, too, game balance is hard. LOL
Why? Why don’t you just play without trading?
There is a solo option.
Or you don’t have to do the solo, you can do the regular just not trade.
So why would you have to chose?
Ok you answered it now, so ill edit my post to answer that, give me a sec.
The changes to the balance of the game shouldn’t hurt players that don’t like trading, ill agree to that. at least not a big impact. There is a lot of balancing to do that is correct.
Also, if you don’t like dungeons, and lets say it will the only way to get legendary items, the trading could save you there from doing any content you don’t like. But thats kinda an “IF” point…
Yes, that’s true. You didn’t either stat why you consider the opposite.
I don’t want to exchange arguments and facts about this, just to acknwledge that we don’t agree, in response to
where I seem to be in the exception.
Well there are a lot of reasons to why an auction house is the most convenient.
The top are:
Auction houses are not the most convenient.
So, which method is the most convenient?
if convenience is the guiding factor, then lets discuss that.
Compare the following designs:
The game company makes really good items really, really, really, really rare and hard to get. They know that the game will have 10s of thousands of players and an AH, so they foist the responsibility of obtaining good items on the players, forcing them to farm good items (even ones they can’t use) just to then sell them on the AH to some player who is after that item (but can’t get it themselves due to the low drop rates) to obtain currency so that they can then buy the item they want from some other player who is selling it for the same reasons.
Item drop rates and crafting are designed in a way where you can work towards your own items yourself in a reasonable way/timeframe.
Literally, there is no reason to prefer option 1 over option 2.
The game company shouldn’t make items “really, really, really, really rare” just because they know they have an auction house. Thats the point I am making with the balancing.
Your number 2 point should always be an option. With or without trading.