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Bazaar, Auction house, and future trading

Here are my two cents regarding the trading, if I may. (I didn’t find any active discussion on trading, yet nothing on the rules which prohibited that, correct me if I missed something please)
This is coming from a RPG fan and vet who would like to see this game succeed. Someone who have seen the rise and fall of some games and has some experience on what can kill a game.

This is assuming two points we can all (or most of us) probably agree on:
1. An auction house is the most convenient, most player friendly way of trading.
2. An auction house, or even direct trading without an auction house, will absolutely destroy the game if implemented at the current state of the game.

So there are two ways of approaching this.
One way:
We can’t do an auction house, so we will settle for the next best thing that won’t destroy the game.
We might end up with something weird like a randomize players shop and players won’t be able to trade with their friends unless they both dropped the item together…But ce la vi…

Or
You can look at it the other way around:
We know that an auction house is the best way of trading so what changes do we need to make to the game, so we can implement the auction house successfully?
Trading is such a big part of an online game, maybe its worth the effort.

You might end up with a list of changes to make to the game. for example:

  1. We need to make items more unique, so it will be way harder to find the same item with the same affixes twice:
    a. X more item bases
    b. X more unique items
    c. Items will now have 6/8 affixes instead of 4.

  2. Because of 1c we will need to make changes to our affixes system:
    a. Make more tiers, and the difference between tiers will be lower.
    b. Need to add more affixes, maybe halfsies on resistances (cold and fire. necro and poison etc) Maybe add accuracy, since we have dodge that makes sense.
    c. Decrease the power of affixes by X%. Resistances by Y% (including blessings).

  3. We need to make changes to the crafting system. it should be harder to add an affix, maybe add more instability when adding an affix.

  4. Players will generally be stronger so we nerf blessing by X%. Increase base monsters hp by X%.

  5. We need to make gold more scarce.

  6. Exalted items will be more rare.
    .
    .
    .
    Etc etc etc

And then maybe check if these changes are worth it.
Will it add to the game? Will it decrease from the game? If so, how much will it decrease from the game compared to how much trading will add to the game?

What other ARPG games had an auction house? why did it fail? what can we do differently?

You can go with the mediocre approach, but I would really hate seeing this game ends up as a time passer between POE leagues, while having 3-5k player base.

Or you can do something special here that ARPGs currently having a problem to do. And aim a bit higher.
You are facing giants here. POE has been developed for almost a decade. Diablo3, Diablo4 on the way. POE2 on the way… Can Last Epoch afford a mediocre approach?

This game is in beta, not yet online, when you take it online if you decide to go with an auction house you can let the community know; “The economy is going to be funky for a few patches until we nail down the tweaking of the mechanics for the auction house, but we really want a good trading system so bear with us while we make it work.”
The community will love it.
Or - “You will have the bazaar until we will get the game intricate enough to implement a better trading system.”

This is the time to experiment.
I honestly believe that an ARPG with an auction house will draw players to it, And that an online ARPG that doesn’t at the very least have the option to click on a player and then straight up trade isn’t going to survive long, especially with the competition already out there.

I like the game, I want to see it succeed and this is just another player’s opinion and should be treated has such.

Thanks.

Edit: clarification - when I am referring to mediocre approach, I am talking exclusively about trading, not any other aspect of the game.

I disagree with your premise here. Yes, its true, an AH is the most efficient way to sell (not trade, per se) items. But the underlying premise is that trading is important and/or required for the game, which is not true at all.

LE, so far, has proven that its loot system (which includes its crafting system) is self-sufficient. Meaning, unlike other ARPGs where you HAVE to trade to get items or bases you need, that is patently false in LE. You can get those yourself, and craft what you need yourself. There is no reliance on trade like other ARPGs.

So, that obviates the need for an auction house entirely.

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“But the underlying premise is that trading is important and/or required for the game, which is not true at all.”
We’ll have to strongly disagree on that. While ill agree that it isn’t required, it is immensely important for the game.
Not only for the items or resources that you would be able to get, but for the trading expierence itself.

“unlike other ARPGs where you HAVE to trade to get items or bases you need”
I don’t know an ARPG game where you HAVE to trade…
There might be games where if you won’t trade it will take you a long time to get what you want, for the sheer number of items, bases and uniques there are.
But LE will get there eventually, items will be added gradually, even now it might take you a while to find what you want. which is fine.

“So, that obviates the need for an auction house entirely.”
There is no need for an auction house, there never is.

I don’t like the idea of totally unrestricted trade and definitely don’t want the game to be balanced around trade. I think you loose a connection to your items with trade and everything becomes about the lowest common denominator: gold.

For me the only reason I would want trading is to trade with my small group of friends so my first idea is to have a short list of (5-10 ppl). That I can trade with directly. The list of people could only change every 3-4 mo so it basically wouldn’t update until the next league.

A different idea I saw somewhere was a rare currency (1per 50hrs) that you could use to trade 1 item with someone else. (Both players would need one). The do like how this would make the best way to play the game to go kill monsters.

Actually o just thought of the hybrid of these 2. Keep the short list but to change the list to only update after killing x number of monsters. I would have x grow exponential ea time.

If you would like to limit trade, then sure… there are probably a 1000 ways you can do that effectivly, from a special currency that let you trade items, or a special currency that would let you list an item to a randomize people’s shop…

But my point here I am trying to make is more about your first paragraph,
That you don’t want the game to be balanced around trade.
Lets talk about it… can you elborate on why you don’t want the game to be balanced around trade?

Sure because I really like

  • the connection to my items

  • Finding the upgrades myself

I don’t like:

  • farming for currency for an upgrade

With unrestricted trade whatever trade website turns into a npc vendor with every possible upgrade. It just makes the game to easy to reduce into currency per HR.

Oh then I believe, if I understood you correctly, that you have missed my point.
“With unrestricted trade whatever trade website turns into a npc vendor with every possible upgrade. It just makes the game to easy to reduce into currency per HR.”

That is exactly why the game needs development before it incorperate trading. That is why trading won’t work right now and I would agree to that.
Again, I am not talking about full trading in the current state of the game, that will absolutly won’t work, no question about it.

I don’t see how adding affix could fix it. All those things are important to me.

Adding affixes sounds like diluting the pool and watering down the items that do drop and making it worse to find upgrades.

In the original post you asked

But never gave an answer. I think these are the questions that need to be answered first before so many resources are spent making these changes.

“Adding affixes sounds like diluting the pool and watering down the items that do drop and making it worse to find upgrades.”
That was an example, I specifically made it bold not to be confused with a real thing… that whole list is an example.

“But never gave an answer. I think these are the questions that need to be answered first before so many resources are spent making these changes.”

These are the questions the devs needs to ask after they compile their own list of changes, which may or may not include changes to affixes.
Yes of course there are resources that needs to go into that, they need to answer if its worth it.
It just my opinion on the apporch that needs to be taken.

It’s been a while, it didn’t seem that way to me.

So since Last Epoch is still “in flux/motion/etc.” and is also developing accordingly on this topic and we have already touched on this subject a few times, I can only recommend that you have a look at least once “there” (see “Links”).

Briefly:
Due to the expected development, it is difficult for me to repeat all the arguments here for a bunch of unlaid eggs.

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Yes, I brifely went over the trading topics. That is also why I added notion that I can’t find any “active” discussion.

I do believe that trading is incredibly important and needs to be done right, and not just “the best that we can do it without destroying our game”
But the other way around, developing the game with the idea to allow full trading in the future. Which means taking decision, regarding items, crafting etc, with the idea that one day you will have full trading and if the decisions that you are making today will work with that.

Why do you think the game is taking the mediocre approach with restricted trading?

(Also fyi if you want to quote something highlight it then there is a quote button. It makes the formatting really nice. If that doesn’t work you can type: [/quote] at the beginning and end of the section.

Thanks.
Because they are not making the effort to make full trading work. They are slapping trading that works.

Why wouldn’t trade work in the current state of the game? Sorry if you’ve already stated that in the original post.

IMO the only difference between the game as it is now and the game as it will be with multiplayer/trade (class/skill balance notwithstanding) is the lack of people. I’m just not sure what you think is going to change between now and then.

Edit: also ignoring the backend/technical changes that would be required for mp/trade.

I know this was broached in the other threads but what is the appeal of trading to you? Why does the game need it?

I see the appeal of party trading and the Bazar could be a cool spot to go window-shopping, but unrestricted trading sounds like ordering something on Amazon. I buy bc I need it.

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Yes, you’re not the first to feel that way.

The point is, this has already been discussed a few times… now everyone is waiting for 0.9.0 MP and then we’ll see if it’s good enough and ok.

This just isn’t true. EHG’s main post on trading is very clear that its 100% intentional that you cannot openly trade in LE, because EHG wants the best items to be gotten by playing the game, not trading. It’s not a mistake, and it’s not lack of effort to solve some problem. It’s intentional design.

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Like Nerdherdv has stated,

In the current state of the game if you implement full trading you will have every item that you want in mere hours. Heck, Ive maxed out a character with all the items that I want in two days.
What will change is how intericate items are. You will have more items, more affixes, more tiers etc etc that it will be difficult to find an exact item.
Or maybe something else that the devs will come up with, I am not sure.

Trading for me is, (ill emphsize the “for me” part) 90% of the multiplayer expierence.
You can look at the game at its current state, I am a player who plays 1-3 buils tops. and there is the monolith which gives me almost 0 reason to go through it right? lets say I play a sorc, what I am gonna do with the epic dagger reward? polearms? etc etc
What I am gonna do with the gold?
I personnaly like to find good items to trade in order to add a tool for upgrading my own gear.
Finding the ultimate item means nothing if you don’t use it. And you don’t use it if its not right for you and you don’t have trade.
But that just personal perfrence I guess.

You can wait, Id like to discuss it now :slight_smile:

Not saying its not intentional, that being intentional is part of the issue.
They can make the effort to make both the claims true, have open trade and have the best items being aquire through playing the game.
And whos to say that trading isn’t playing the game?

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I think this is our core difference. If I find something cool I will find a build to use it whereas you want a way to convert it into something for your character.

I suppose it is the same for me but as a % of the overall game i would say I like it being very small 5%.

I say trading is not playing the game. Its trading. Its downtime. Its an alternate activity. If EHG decided to add an NPC at the “End of Time” which opened a Tetris window, and you could play Tetris inside of LE, is playing Tetris playing LE? I mean, its inside LE as part of the game, so isn’t it LE? No, it’s not. It’s Tetris. Having some other activity which can be done inside of the game does not automatically make that activity part of the game.

This isn’t black and white. Will the proposed Bazaar be “part of the game”? I mean, you go to an area, see player shops, browse, maybe buy an item or two. Open your shop, post up a few items, then go back to Monos or Arena. Did you just “stop” playing the game to do that, or does that count as just a “part” of the game? It’s easy to simply denote anything inside of the LE game as part of the game, and you wouldn’t be technically wrong. But if LE was just trading windows with no monsters, monos, arena, etc. would it be an ARPG or would it be a Trade Simulator?

Game identity is important. I don’t want to play a Trade Simulator. I want to play an ARPG. I want to smash monsters for loot. As long as I can create builds and gear up those builds by smashing monsters for loot, I can’t conceive of a reason why I’d need Trade. Trade’s only purpose is to gain items you cannot get (or can’t get reasonably) by smashing monsters for loot. Saying trade is it’s own fun activity that some people enjoy holds no water. Because some people enjoy Tetris, and it is just as unreasonable to ask EHG to add that Tetris NPC as it is to ask them to add Trading. Or Fishing. Or Housing. Or anything else that isn’t “smashing monsters for loot.” If EHG devs are going to spend hours coding, I want that coding to produce more ways for me to smash monsters for loot, not side games/side activities. And that’s because this is an ARPG.

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