Why is ward considered better than health?

[AbombDaChamp]

@Felio

Ward decays and heath doesn’t.

There is a resting point for Ward which is usually significantly higher than HP if playing low life. You can have 40k Ward which is far higher than 6k Health. Ward also regenerates much faster at those lvls and you won’t be 1 shot.

@Felio

Like, there are items that convert your health into ward

Here is where one of the places where Ward needs a nerf. The conversion is far too great. You can have only 2k HP but with a few items can convert that into 10k Ward which is 5 times the EHP (effective health pool)

It shouldn’t be so easy to convert health into Ward and this could be nerfed by 50%. Well there are many things about the Ward mechanic that need changes but this is one of them.

Ward builds are just 100’s of times stronger than HP builds. When in reality a full BiS Ward set up should only be slightly better in some scenario’s and HP better in others if there was balance.

[Houlala]

@Obakong

My thoughts are that maybe, just maybe, Ward should not enjoy your full defenses.

Exactly that.
I don’t understand why armour and damage reduction apply to ward, they should come in only after this first layer of magical outside protection is broken.
That would make more sense, you have this outside bubble, then once inside you have your body strength and the armour you wear (not that logic matters much in an ARPG, but still…).

This set up would considerably reduce the actual eHP of ward, instantly making it more balanced.

[BaalMelqart]

@Felio

Like, there are items that convert your health into ward or convert potion healing into ward. Why is that a good thing? Ward decays and heath doesn’t.

Right now WARD is a bit controversial. Classes that don’t utilize it see people getting it’s benefits and get upset. Classes that use it often don’t get the insane level of hate because they can barely generate it.

-Your question “items that convert health to ward” is at the heart of it. Currently, builds that would not generally use ward can do so anyway because there are multiple item types that can sap your health and generate ward. Granted, depending on your build, you might be sacrificing all the beneficial affixes you can get from other items, you’re JUST using these pieces for ward generation. A nice, invisible shield is nice.

*MY OPINION: Yeah, ward shouldn’t be a gimmick you can get from just slapping some life sucking gear on, regardless of your class but calls to nerf it altogether are also silly. Perhaps: limit the gear that anyone can get from life sucking but don’t nerf it altogether.

Health is an okay route to go IF you incorporate dodge and/or block chance, endurance and also perhaps things that redirect health loss to be redirected to mana.

-In terms of items that sap health and generate ward: I am personally thinking this will be addressed/nerfed eventually so plan accordingly. I doubt the change will happen this cycle but this is my first cycle with them, so who knows??

[Heavy]

@Obakong

Or maybe Endurance should not protect Ward at all for those low health/high Ward builds?

This is already the case, endurances does not affect ward.

I agree that one way of making ward less overpowered would be an effectiveness reduction of other defensive layers such as armor and dodge.

[twistard]

@AbombDaChamp

You can have only 2k HP but with a few items can convert that into 10k Ward which is 5 times the EHP (effective health pool)

those items sound pretty good as im usually only getting 10k ward. Care to share the names of a few of the items?

Warlock, level 92 (Release / 1.0.5) - Last Epoch Build Planner

[Llama8]

@TyphonBaan

Maybe after five years they are bored with all the mainstream/core stuff and the weirder the idea the better. “What about a fire tornado?!”

Yes, I’ll admit that I’m salty that the shaman’s best tornado is fire (with Rune of the Simoon)… which isn’t one of the shamans core damage/resistance types.

They were supposed to be redesigning Tornado.

Choose the Skill Tree You'd Like to Help Design!

One of the defining features of Last Epoch is its skill system. As part of our work to raise the standard of the game across the board, we have been reworking existing specialization trees in cases where we felt they were not as interesting, as fleshed-out, or offering as many options as some of our newer specialization trees. One of the most recent examples of this is Patch 0.7.7’s redesign of Lightning Blast’s tree. We have identified five skills with specialization trees we would like to re…

@Obakong

Or maybe Endurance should not protect Ward at all for those low health/high Ward builds?

It doesn’t, endurance only affects damage to health.

@Houlala

I don’t understand why armour and damage reduction apply to ward, they should come in only after this first layer of magical outside protection is broken.

I think that would probably be fair for builds that use both health & ward (ie, not low life).

@BaalMelqart

-Your question “items that convert health to ward” is at the heart of it. Currently, builds that would not generally use ward can do so anyway because there are multiple item types that can sap your health and generate ward. Granted, depending on your build, you might be sacrificing all the beneficial affixes you can get from other items, you’re JUST using these pieces for ward generation. A nice, invisible shield is nice.

Low life builds aren’t the issue. Specific skills that can generate massive amounts of ward on demand are the issue. A “proper” low life build with, say 4k hp, both body & boots to generate 35% would have a stable ward of ~10-11k & a max generation of ~700/sec.

@AbombDaChamp

You can have only 2k HP but with a few items can convert that into 10k Ward which is 5 times the EHP (effective health pool)

You can’t. Exsanguinous converts 20%, Last Steps of the Living converts 15% & the experimental gloves affix can convert anywhere up to 12% at t5 or 20% at t7 (good luck finding one of those on a decent base with other decent affixes), this would be a total of 55%. At most that would give you ~5.6k stable ward with 2k hp (& 200 ward retention). Low life ward conversion needs much more hp to scale into ward than you think it does.

Ward Calculator

[Psojed]

Why is ward considered better than health?

In ARPGs, the general idea is to make a character that can defeat enemies at a reasonable speed while not dying to attacks from said monsters.

In general, there are three ways how monsters can defeat the player:

1. Hit them with a BIG hit.
2. Wear them down with lots of continuous smaller hits.
3. Drain his life with damage over time effects.

What do players do to combat this?

• To survive the big hit (1), player needs to have enough HP/Ward (and DR% if needed).
• To survive the smaller hits, or the damage over time (2, 3), player needs to either:
  • have enough HP/Ward (and DR% if needed), or
  • have enough sustain to replenish the lost parts of HP/Ward faster than the enemy can damage them.

How do players do this?

• In general, to raise your HP, you need to dedicate lots affixes on your gear and idols to “+HP”, “+HP%” and “+HP and +HP%” type of affixes. You get only small amounts of +HP in the passive trees. And you cannot use a skill to gain, say, +1000 HP at all (one exception, being the Werebear Druid spec).
  However, this considerable investment ONLY gives you flat HP. It doesn’t give you any sustain at all.

• To raise your HP sustain, you need another investment. You get either Damage Leech, which comes from various sources (items, passives, blessings), but usually in smaller amounts, and relies on you constantly dealing damage.
  Or you get Health regeneration, which is mostly obtained from items and Blessing (again, one exception being the Paladin), but on items it comes from the same affix slots as your +flat HP affixes.

• So to summarize, majority of players will need to invest a lot into survivability, and either be able to sustain themselves with constantly dealing damage, or stack two bonuses that are fighting each other for space.

So why is Ward considered better than Health?

• While there are skills that can give you, say +400 Ward instantly, that amount will quickly go away, because you naturally lose Ward over time.
• This means, that the only way you can have Ward is to be able to sustain it. So, anyone who uses Ward must automatically fulfill the part of “HP regen” by default, else there’s no Ward.
• Finally, majority of Ward users are generating their Ward sustain mostly from skill and passive interactions (Ward on Cast, Ward on Hit, Ward on Crit, Ward per Current Mana, Ward per Amount Overhealed, etc.), and certain builds only need a single item to meet all their Ward sustain needs (Twisted Heart of Uhkeiros).

So you see, while everyone has HP, not everyone has the “sustain” part, the HP regen or Leech, and having both requires considerable investment. Meanwhile, everyone who uses Ward automatically has the “sustain” part, and every Ward user has some kind of easy to get Ward generation, that doesn’t require considerable investment.

There is little to no investment required to obtain a reasonable amount of Ward (2 000 - 13 000). With investment in gear that helps you generate more Ward, you can obtain unreasonable amount of Ward (13 000 - 250 000+).

That is the main reason, why Ward is considered better than Health.

[AbombDaChamp]

@Llama8

You can’t. Exsanguinous converts 20%, Last Steps of the Living converts 15% & the experimental gloves affix can convert anywhere up to 12% at t5 or 20% at t7 (good luck finding one of those on a decent base with other decent affixes), this would be a total of 55%. At most that would give you ~5.6k stable ward with 2k hp

You are just factually wrong. My lock has only 35% conversion total. 15% cheap experimental gloves and 1 LP Exsang. 2600 HP = 11,476 stable Ward. With very little investment and not using Shackles or Last steps I easy got 11k+ Ward which is almost 5x of my HP. (wearing cheap bad gear) Which is my point on why Ward is so broken and better than Health.

Furthermore I’ve seen builds at 40k+ stable Ward with 5k HP. Which is 9 times the EHP of my earlier example. So you just aren’t understanding what is going on here.

@Llama8

Low life ward conversion needs much more hp to scale into ward than you think it does.

It really doesn’t not in 1.0. Maybe you don’t have the experience in this cycle but it’s incredibly easy to get 5 times the EHP with Ward compared to HP with little investment which is the problem. I shouldn’t be getting 11k Ward with just a cheap experimental and 1 LP Esang at 2600 HP. Come on it’s super broken.

You obviously forgeting how Ward scales. It’s not just the conversion it’s Ward per sec, Ward Retention and Decay threshold that cause the HP conversion to go bonkers. Everything needs a nerf.

The Ward scaling is far easier than you think it is. So easy to get 5 or 7 times your HP in Ward. It’s harder to get 4k HP than get 20k or 30k stable Ward.

I remember when I was playing hard mode and HP builds then I said I’ll just make some Ward builds which is when I realized this is the real game and how completely busted it is. Why play an HP build or even bother when you can get 5 times the EHP easily with Ward with only 2k+ HP.

[Psojed]

You are wrong.

39% Ward per missing Health
3k HP
566% Ward Retention
more than 100 Ward per Second from other sources.
Ends at 12,3k Ward.

Last Epoch Ward Guide

What you’ve seen are builds that generate Ward by using Skills, not just with Ward per missing Health.

[AbombDaChamp]

@Psojed

You are wrong.

Nothing I said is wrong. So you are mistaken. I have only stated hard facts from my experience and other showcased builds. I think you people just don’t understand what is happening or the high end of scaling on Ward.

@Psojed

What you’ve seen are builds that generate Ward by using Skills

Nope I have those builds too lol. I’m not talking about skills. I have a HH/Bolt Pally I understand the game and the difference. (they are also broken for different reasons)

@Psojed

not just with Ward per missing Health.

Yes we are talking “Just” about STABLE WARD. No one is talking about skills. You can get 40k+ STABLE WARD! Just on HP conversion with Ward per sec, retention, decay. Sigh…

Everything below is correct.

@AbombDaChamp

It really doesn’t not in 1.0. Maybe you don’t have the experience in this cycle but it’s incredibly easy to get 5 times the EHP with Ward compared to HP with little investment which is the problem. I shouldn’t be getting 11k Ward with just a cheap experimental and 1 LP Esang at 2600 HP. Come on it’s super broken.

You obviously forgeting how Ward scales. It’s not just the conversion it’s Ward per sec, Ward Retention and Decay threshold that cause the HP conversion to go bonkers. Everything needs a nerf.

The Ward scaling is far easier than you think it is. So easy to get 5 or 7 times your HP in Ward. It’s harder to get 4k HP than get 20k or 30k stable Ward.

@AbombDaChamp

My lock has only 35% conversion total. 15% cheap experimental gloves and 1 LP Exsang. 2600 HP = 11,476 stable Ward. With very little investment and not using Shackles or Last steps I easy got 11k+ Ward which is almost 5x of my HP. (wearing cheap bad gear) Which is my point on why Ward is so broken and better than Health.

So this is why Ward is exponentially better! Why play a 2-5k HP build when you can play a 10-40k Stable Ward build when you go low life.

[yawan]

Same reason why 100k is considered better than 4k.

[Klainhz]

Just so you know you’ll need around 5k hp, 848% ward retention and at least 230 ward/s with 55% conversion to be able to get 40k stable ward.

[DJSamhein]

@AbombDaChamp

You are just factually wrong. My lock has only 35% conversion total. 15% cheap experimental gloves and 1 LP Exsang. 2600 HP = 11,476 stable Ward. With very little investment and not using Shackles or Last steps I easy got 11k+ Ward which is almost 5x of my HP. (wearing cheap bad gear) Which is my point on why Ward is so broken and better than Health.

You don’t get that just from gear though. My acolyte is using exsang, last steps and 8% gloves, for a total of 42% conversion. I have no other bonus to ward except for 2 11% ward retention idols. With 1235 total health I get stable 2769 ward, just sitting around near the chest.
So with your numbers, and with no other bonuses, you’d have just about 6k. Which means that you have other sources for boosting ward/retention/decay.

Yes, it’s relatively easy to boost it. It needs balance (which the devs already said they will do). But it’s not as simple as putting on 3 pieces of gear and getting 20k ward.

[Psojed]

Nothing I said is wrong.

You said a lot of wrong things. Others already replied to some, so I’ll just show you what we talked about

You said:

My lock has only 35% conversion total. 15% cheap experimental gloves and 1 LP Exsang. 2600 HP = 11,476 stable Ward. With very little investment and not using Shackles or Last steps I easy got 11k+

So, your “hard fact from experience” says that at 2600 HP and 35% conversion and unspecified amount of Ward Retention, you get 11476 Ward.

Luckily for us, Llama8 linked to a Ward calculator. And when you put your numbers into the calculator, you get this:

11476 - 2275 = 9201 difference, that’s a lot.

But wait, we have another example

I replied with an example from the current patch, with a video as proof, where the player uses 3065 HP, and 39% conversion, 566% Ward Retention and 100 Ward per Second. At the end of the video, we can see his Ward number stops moving, so we know the final stats: he is down to 40 health and he is up at 12387 Ward. Let’s plop that into the calculator, shall we?

12403 - 12387 = 16 Ward difference. Pretty spot on, right?

So, that’s how we know your numbers are wrong.

I have only stated hard facts from my experience and other showcased builds.

I don’t know what experience you are talking about, but even if your “experience” meant anything in the context of discussing Ward, we have the hard facts - calculator, video, math - and all you have is anectodal personal experience.

---

To be clear, nobody is contesting the fact that Ward doesn’t come just from conversion. We know Ward comes from other sources too, and we also know about stats that affect Ward. I don’t know what gave you the idea that we don’t know how Ward works.

Of course, you’re always free to show us the

40k+ stable Ward with 5k HP.

builds. Or you can demonstrate how

It’s harder to get 4k HP than get 20k or 30k stable Ward.

[AbombDaChamp]

@Klainhz

Just so you know you’ll need around 5k hp, 848% ward retention and at least 230 ward/s with 55% conversion to be able to get 40k stable ward.

Just so you know I’m only stating the facts and my original point which for some reason people are wrongly argueing.

@Psojed

You said a lot of wrong things.

Except I didn’t. This isn’t a complicated thread and you guys are just argueing cause your bored apparently. Maybe the answer to this thread is too simple so you are just wanting to argue with what I said instead?

@Psojed

So, that’s how we know your numbers are wrong.

None of my numbers are wrong and what are you argueing at this point? My original post are true.

@AbombDaChamp

My lock has only 35% conversion total. 15% cheap experimental gloves and 1 LP Exsang. 2600 HP = 11,476 stable Ward. With very little investment and not using Shackles or Last steps I easy got 11k+ Ward which is almost 5x of my HP. (wearing cheap bad gear) Which is my point on why Ward is so broken and better than Health.

This thread is about why is Ward better. It isn’t complicated. It’s exponentially better because you can get 5X the EHP easily compared to just flat Health. Which I simply explained.

@Psojed

I don’t know what experience you are talking about, but even if your “experience” meant anything in the context of discussing Ward

If you have very basic experience you will understand the thread and my points.

@Psojed

we have the hard facts - calculator, video, math - and all you have is anectodal personal experience.

What does this have to do with what I said. Nothing because it doesn’t disprove anything or mean anything. I’m literally using actual in game numbers so your Ward calc and links are irrelevant. You forum warriors need something to do.

@Psojed

builds. Or you can demonstrate how

There are Abom necro builds with 40k Stable Ward. Just because you never seen it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. This is common sense. Sorry you haven’t experienced these builds yet or know of their existence. Having a Ward calc link doesn’t change these facts.

@Psojed

To be clear, nobody is contesting

At this point no one knows what you are contesting. Since I don’t. Nothing I said is wrong and your calc and your video link and nothing you said changes that. Everything I posted is from actual in game numbers. So have a nice day?

• There needs to be a nerf to the HP conversion, Ward per sec/Retention and Decay threshold. At no point should builds get 2 easy items go low life and have 4-5X the EHP compared to HP. If you have 2kish HP you shouldn’t have 10k+ Ward with cheap gear. Again this is why Ward is significantly better than HP as per the thread title. I’m done. Good day. Time for work.

PS - It’s wild that some of you will go till great lengths and derail threads just to argue. Find better hobbies or play the game more? I don’t see how you enjoy being like this on the forums and doesn’t make the forums better. It’s honestly exhausting to deal with.

[Psojed]

Except I didn’t.

None of my numbers are wrong

I’m literally using actual in game numbers so your Ward calc and links are irrelevant.

Having a Ward calc link doesn’t change these facts.

Nothing I said is wrong and your calc and your video link and nothing you said changes that.

Everything I posted is from actual in game numbers.

You forum warriors need something to do.

It’s wild that some of you will go till great lengths and derail threads just to argue

exhausting to deal with.

Oh the irony

At no point should builds get 2 easy items go low life and have 4-5X the EHP compared to HP. If you have 2kish HP you shouldn’t have 10k+ Ward with cheap gear.

You don’t have 10k+ Ward just from cheap gear, so all is well.

Have a nice day.

[AbombDaChamp]

@Psojed

You don’t have 10k+ Ward just from cheap gear, so all is well.

Except I do and I explained that.

@AbombDaChamp

My lock has only 35% conversion total. 15% cheap experimental gloves and 1 LP Exsang. 2600 HP = 11,476 stable Ward. With very little investment and not using Shackles or Last steps I easy got 11k+ Ward which is almost 5x of my HP. (wearing cheap bad gear) Which is my point on why Ward is so broken and better than Health.

@Psojed

Oh the irony

Not sure how. I’ve used factual in game numbers and all you have done is link stuff trying to tell me my eyes are misleading me from what is happening in game. I’ve made very simple statements all of which continue to be facts. Which the good thing about facts is whether you believe them or not they still remain facts.

@Psojed

Have a nice day.

I will got a nice bowl of Chili Rice and work today hopefully will be quick so I can log in and enjoy my busted Ward builds. Have a nice day and next time just try to be open to new information you haven’t heard yet. Sometimes they are new facts for you to learn.

Maybe ask how people are doing what I’ve explained. I do want to try the 40k Stable Ward build but those are actually expensive.

[DJSamhein]

@AbombDaChamp

@AbombDaChamp

My lock has only 35% conversion total. 15% cheap experimental gloves and 1 LP Exsang. 2600 HP = 11,476 stable Ward. With very little investment and not using Shackles or Last steps I easy got 11k+ Ward which is almost 5x of my HP. (wearing cheap bad gear) Which is my point on why Ward is so broken and better than Health.

@Psojed

Oh the irony

Not sure how. I’ve used factual in game numbers

@DJSamhein

You don’t get that just from gear though. My acolyte is using exsang, last steps and 8% gloves, for a total of 42% conversion. I have no other bonus to ward except for 2 11% ward retention idols. With 1235 total health I get stable 2769 ward, just sitting around near the chest.

As you can see from my post (which you conveniently ignored), which is using factual in game numbers, you can’t get near that amount of ward just from 3 pieces of gear. You need to also increase ward retention/decay/ward per second. Warlock passive tree has a lot of such nodes, so it’s quite likely you have a few. You don’t get 11k ward just from life to ward conversion on the gear pieces.

It’s still easy to ramp, but if you have no other source of ward/retention/decay other than the gear, you don’t get as high a value as you claim.

[AbombDaChamp]

@DJSamhein

It’s still easy to ramp

Which is the problem and my original point. It’s way too easy to ramp up and needs the following…

@AbombDaChamp

There needs to be a nerf to the HP conversion, Ward per sec/Retention and Decay threshold.

@DJSamhein

As you can see from my post (which you conveniently ignored), which is using factual in game numbers

I ignored it because I don’t think it’s relevant to my post or the thread. Reading it and responding to it doesn’t change anything?

@DJSamhein

you can’t get near that amount of ward just from 3 pieces of gear. You need to also increase ward retention/decay/ward per second.

Of course you need to increase the big 3 never said you didn’t. It’s not hard to do though which is my point. There are blessings, implicits, exalts, passives etc… but all easily attainable and then you are off to the races with 10k+ ward with almost no gear investment. (which is the problem) A problem I’m trying to highlight! So my only focus in on that problem which I have repeatedly stated.

@DJSamhein

but if you have no other source of ward/retention/decay other than the gear, you don’t get as high a value as you claim.

Never claimed that. People are making this complicated when it’s not. I wish people didn’t make it complicated but here we are. Low gear investment easy 10k+ ward and high gear investment 40k stable Ward. That’s why Ward is better than Health. It’s that simple. Do you want to play a build with 2-5k Health or 10k-40k Ward. I made my choice.

[CaiusMartius]

Watching someone tell everyone else they are wrong only because they say so is quite the headache.

I see one side of this argument posting actually screenshots, videos, links and data to back up their evidence.

I see the other side saying “Nope, I do this and I get this” with no visual confirmation or evidence to back up a claim. Someone either needs to post so video capture of them getting these amazing ward numbers with actual evidence or, please, move on.

If you can post it, I will 100% get behind what you’re saying but if not, those who have laid out their actual evidence seem to know more of what they profess.