And if tomorrow all modern ARPGs dropped a patch to allow you to rush bosses over and over the same way people ran Meph in D2, would you accept the significantly worse drop rates that would necessarily come with that?
Progress has halted at 800c. That is way past endgame. Itâs no longer a progression problem but rather an endgame pushing problem. Which isnât supposed to be easy.
At that stage, along with the new gliph, itâs pretty fast to farm harbingers. And they should have a 75% drop rate at that point.
So this means that every 3 harbingers you can expect 2 eyes. So 9 harbingers on average for 6 tries. Still 1 better than the 10 bosses required by Maven.
It really isnât. Itâs just a perception problem. LE just has to give you the tools to be able to do all content in a reasonable timeframe. Right now that content is 300c + pinnacle boss. If you want to push further, you should have a harder time of it.
Much like in PoE, if you want to push 15k delve, you have a hard time getting the great gear you need for it.
But you donât hear PoE players crying out to GGG because itâs so hard to get that gear to progress past 10k in delve.
Why though? Outside of dumb shit like PoE no other games where fighting bosses is gated like this. I guess the closest is World of Warcraft where the instance resets each week. (although you could extend the lockout last I knew) But even then, for your guildâs play session they could go at the boss as much as they wanted.
I didnât feel any less accomplished when I took down some tough heroic boss in WoW or beat something in Dark Souls just because I was able to try it as much as I wanted without grinding between attempts.
If people like feeling the risk of losing stuff there is a hardcore mode.
In POE you can just go past it and spend ingame mnoney if you want. Everything has multile ways to get there. In thsi game there is 1 way and that is farming harbingers for the Abbaroth tries and for the legendary gear it is slamming it in the temple in a big gamble. In Poe i always get there in the end. I have had leagues where i had multiple mirror worthy gear on. I have done all pinnacle bosses on uber version and i have hall of grandmasters on my belt. If i do not want to farm 10 maven bosses, i just buy a writ or whatever and do the maven again. I could even go to the tft and buy a bossrun from soneone else.
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Never said that.
Same as with the other topic⌠itâs the magnitude of difference between his last upgrade and the current one.
And OP has a higher tolerance level then his friends in relation to that.
Also OP compares it with the invested time in PoE and the stage of overall progression there in his mind compared to how far the same time gets one in LE and the difference in progression rate then.
Which yeah! If you compare ti this way LE offers less for your buck simply. And itâs a viable argument to make.
Changing it directly? Quite another topic!
Not core progression⌠thatâs a side mechanic.
Thatâs why people complain less.
Which once more is as you say, perception.
Psychological reward coming from monkey-brain we all humans have.
Huh?
Torchlight Infinite does the same, which is the other main competitor on the live-service market for diablo-clones.
We have D3, D4, LE, PoE and Torchlight Infinite. We coooould say Lost Ark but that game instead went limiting route (baaad) and P2W to subvert that. Only D3 and D4 (And Lost Ark) donât have that of the mentioned ones.
The gear power progression curve is a problem, yes, and Iâve said this elsewhere. But itâs not OPâs problem, which is just that they want the best stuff, but donât like how difficult and time consuming it is to get it.
That only works when itâs the personâs actual complaint. Here, it is not.
Think Imma go buy a lottery ticket.
No shift in goalposts.
The topic was about viable crafted items for his progression.
Which yeah, they donât exist, he reached the peak possible, nothing more to do.
My point is that it starts even below that, availability of generally viable items which have been crafted in MG⌠or at least appear to be crafted and have a good outcome.
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It was a response on something you said. Let me refresh your memory:
Itâs such a shame they never added the ability to buy items from other players to Last Epoch through some kind of auction house like system. They really missed an opportunity there.
Added to that, I like understanding ALL systems in a game I play. Just because I play COF, doesnât mean I donât understand how the MG works. As a matter of fact if youâve played endgame COF, you know I should be even complaining more than MG players.
I said LP2+, not LP2 exactly. So my slams are including LP3âs as well.
Thereâs 11 slots of gear that could be legendary, I didnât get even 1 rolled right. I lowered my standards to LP2+. None of them hit. Tried for 100hrs, at some point the time/effort equation comes in and thatâs causing people to quit playing LE.
Again, I had 0/11 slots upgraded the way I wanted. You think someone is going to spend 100+hrs for 1 slot upgrade? What would YOU think is a good amount of time? 1000+hrs? 100k hours? To be honest with you I think 25+ hrs is already pushing it for most people.
Let me add that Iâm actually a very patient player, many other players will quit before me. In my group of friends, all have quit LE. They love gambling in PoE and went back to PoE instead. They hated the stacked RNG in this game.
Do I need to keep telling you that PoE and LE are not the same?
Hmm, interesting reply. Do I need to explain thereâs no correlation between the time me being here and LE in-game play time?
As for the childish pedigree games and flexing. That was a response to something you said before, allow me to refresh your memory once more:
I quit playing very early this cycle, but Iâve probably spent orders of magnitude more time slamming Legendaries than you have. But Iâm not going to marry a gorilla and then complain about the stench of bananas, so Iâve never once thought âIâm going to quit this game if the RNG doesnât give me the best items right away!
â
Did I read that right? You flexing on someone else playing childish pedigree gamesâŚ
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You understand that it has nothing to do with accomplishment and those are both wildly different scenarios from an ARPG right?
You have to actually do the dungeon to farm bosses in WoW, and the ones that drop the best items canât be farmed a hundred times a day. Thereâs still a gate, itâs just time instead of a maguffin. And with a Souls, killing the bosses relies way more on your own skill, the drops are fixed, you only kill the boss once per run, and loot hunting is not the entire point of the game.
Neither of those cases are at all equivalent to an ARPG boss with random loot that can be killed hundreds of times a day.
[Edit: To be clear, Iâm not making an argument either for or against gating bosses here. Iâm just pointing out why âWoW and Dark Souls do it differentâ is not a very good argument against gating bosses.]
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Yes, especially since weâre not talking about reaching BiS.
BiS for 10k hours? Fine.
Before that for 1k+ hours? Not fine.
The stage youâre in? I would say 100 can be ok-ish, fantastic powerful item, not even remotely the limit.
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Keys to bosses is literally what people sell on RMT sites, where the loot is. If you think this would not happen, you are delusional.
Honestly, wasnât thinking of other ARPGs. I feel like ARPG games in general have some pretty bad tendencies with stubborn design. Frustration and grind for the sake of it.
You do the preceding dungeon content once per week for unlimited attempts for the rest of the week.
Sure. But the suggestion was to only require the eyes for follow up kills. Your first dozen attempts of not killing the bosses isnât you farming a treasure trove of items from him. Itâs literally just smashing your face against the wall for no gain aside from fight experience.
Besides outside of trade, is it a problem if players can farm items from the final boss as much as they want in our single player game? And trade SHOULD NOT be impacting solo design. Hence the faction split. Maybe CoF could get guaranteed extra eye drops or something and the boss items just get tagged as CoF.
I feel like thatâs more a design problem with the game. The fact that there are builds that can completely annihilate a boss without engaging with the mechanics is just dumb and designing around them just pushes everyone else to do something similarly abusive. If you donât need to do the mechanics to farm the boss, why is there even a boss? Just put up a pinata with an enrage timer and let those builds have at it?
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LE does cause every acquired item to be account-bound currently. Keys/Eyes can fall into the same category.
So⌠care to tell how someone doing RMT acquires the keys in a reliable and profitable fashion without the ability to re-sell? 
Hereâs why itâs not inherently the cause.
And this is the one thing I didnât think about and now 100% agree with.
First try endless, follow-up resource spending.
Yep, on board.
No, because it has no market, which changes the situation. Youâre not âsoloâ anymore then.
But an option for single-player (offline mode and true offline mode) is a thing I would definitely love for EHG to implement for those things.
Yes, balancing is shoddy.
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Same question as to the other person: If tomorrow LE dropped a patch to allow you to rush bosses over and over the same way people ran Meph in D2, would you accept the significantly worse drop rates that would necessarily come with that?
I honestly donât. When I want a lot of multi-minute, skill heavy mechanical fights, I am not firing up an ARPG, the same way Iâm not walking into a Panda Express if Iâm in the mood for pizza. I donât want that from this kind of game, Iâve got no problem if other people spreadsheet their way to blowing up bosses without engaging with any mechanics, and them doing that doesnât change how Iâm going to play.
The same way RMTers collect everything they sell: bots.
Again I ask why though? Why is the first instinct for designing a game like this âOh no! What if people had too much fun! We have to balance this change out with a way to make people have less fun!â Why is the question never âWould this be more fun?â
It does if they design and balance around it. If the droprates, accessibility of content, and difficulty are anchored around everything being trivialized in a way that can only be held back with artificial gates, that does affect you even if you donât play those builds. Hence PoE being an ass game.
CoF is supposed to be walled off from MG exactly so that the game can be designed like itâs single player for those people who want it.
Agree. I donât care much for online, so if this was the solution Iâd be 100% happy with it.
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Because fun is subjective. As shown by the people that have fun with D3 and the ones that have fun with PoE although they are complete opposites in most aspects, especially RNG.
So the question isnât âWould this be more fun?â, itâs âWhat do I want my game to be?â. Itâs a game identity issue, nothing else.
Youâre avoiding the question. That characterization is also extremely bad faith hyperbole, and you know it.
Yes or no - Would you accept proportionately lower drop rates if bosses that are currently gated stopped being gated, and you could farm them D2 style?
Iâve seen enough ARPG player/dev arguments that I know this is not an exaggeration.
That said,
Yes because I donât plan to farm a boss like Aberroth. Heâs the final goal. I kill him, then Iâm done. Itâs weird that design decisions are being made around the idea that someone is going to reach and beat the ultimate challenge in the game so easily and then keep going for some reason. Like why? If your build is trivializing things that much what are you even doing anymore?
Honestly just have a boss like that drop an outfit and itâd make way more sense.
The big thing about bots is that for risk management you move the value from the account of the bot and shift it over to accounts solely focused on the trading of those items. So if one is hit it doesnât affect the other.
Having both tied together into one not only is bigger overhead but it also exponentially increases the risk factor.
And using bots is a cat and mouse game between devs and botters, every banwave is a massive hit not only to your botting network or the distribution network but also directly to your income since the players which have done RMT now lost access to the account, can chargeback through paypal which costs the company 15 dollar per chargeback (a net loss) and they canât even go to court since theyâre marketing by using a product directly which they have no ownership over and no license to be allowed to use it commercially.
Long-term or short-term?
This is where retention comes in.
Live-services need a specific amount of it to function. Retention usually doesnât correlate well with immediate rewards though, since if you get too much your engagement drops. Itâs a complex psychological issue and companies still try to find their ways around this to keep both up⌠some vastly worse then others.
And hence the drop-rates are adjusted since they still walk in the same environment and have the gifting option. To avoid that you need to play true SSF or single-player where the whole situation is once again⌠entirely different since no community aspect exists.
I would.
My answer is âyesâ for that specific question.
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