My autistic self resonates with this statement. But people who crunch numbers as a hobby don’t need ingame tooltips, usually. They have their excel-sheets or other tools like PoB and don’t complain that having numbers is utterly useless if there is no ingame way to measure them 
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Also true!
I do it one way or the other anyway. Given the choice to focus my direction of number crunching? I would say rather then fulfilling that urge in LE I would rather do that in… Factorio for example, or Avorion when I do profit calculations or overall fleet-damage calculations there.
I would say every game providing in-build tools to do the job as well as possible in the first place is one which makes me nod towards them with the notion of ‘Kudos do you, I understand you dear dev who has written this, respect goes your way!’ 
I agree with this sentiment mentioned very early in this thread. It is better if you don’t have all numbers and you have to guess a little bit. That makes you create a build which feels right to you, not a build which is pushing some number.
lol, no you didn’t.
Like, you really think that all it takes to break math is Mad Alchemist’s Ladle? Come on.
Yes 100% need a DPS messuremeant. Sometimes i have like 2-3 of the same 2 LP item with slightly different stats and i just can not tell for sure what exactly is better.
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WoW isn’t an ARPG, it’s an MMORPG, there is no “A” in it.
That all depends on how one defines ARPGs.
If the definition is that an ARPG is real-time action oriented with direct control over your character and with RPG elements - then WoW is an ARPG, even if it calls itself MMORPG.
If it includes a more narrowed definition that it has to have swarms of enemies, isometric perspective, random loot, skills and attributes, etc - basically a Diablo-like - then WoW is not an ARPG.
There are 2 things to say about this:
Not all ARPG-s have a DPS meter and LE doesn’t NEED it, it would be useful but I feel like the actual serverside problems would be a massive issue, the best way to fix it is to go the route of training dummies, just show how much DPS you dealt to it and how much total damage you did to it.
Most ARPG-s have a way to fix the issue(D4 does not count because it sucks and I have not played it). PoE had the POB stuff, which LE will get after some time, there will be a Last Epoch Build Planner good enough to atleast semi calc DPS. D3 has the ingame stat meter. Now I will say I haven’t played any other ARPG-s but to me the problem isn’t that the game has no DPS meter, its that there is no consistent one. The D3 damage meter is not even close to the proper damage, but it actually counts everything, while in last epoch half the skills in the game have no DPS meter(like summons) and the other half have stats which just aren’t counted(I swear to god Damage Over Time has no impact on DPS for skills which scale with it)
Last Epoch will get a build planner and it will be fixed, if it comes ingame it should be as training dummies in my opinion to not start minmaxing for dungeons and to not cause even more server problems. The reason that a DPS meter would be useful is because there is one currently and its half baked, it feels bad because you can see it for some abilities and not for others and the Training Dummies aren’t a good fix because things like Fissure don’t target it.
If you use that definition, Deux Ex is an ARPG. Dishonored is an ARPG. Call of Duty is an ARPG. Which clearly makes no sense.
ARPGs gameplay loop is combat<–>loot. WoW’s gameplay loop is player interaction. Whether through raids or similar mechanics, or simply using the R in RPG. You don’t even need to kill anything in WoW to play it. You can just roleplay the whole time.
RPG = Role playing game
A = Action - This describes that it’s real-time control.
So, are you slipping into the role of a character? Yes? RPG.
Is it real time action? Yes? Action.
MMO = Massive Multiplayer Online
This solely means that people are thrown together in the same areas (with exceptions) in large groups. Guild Wars 2 for example has a 200 player limit before a zone doubles.
So yes, WoW is a third-person MMOARPG + around 20 other sub-genres built into it.
What you’re playing here (LE) is not ‘solely’ an ARPG either.
‘isometric loot-based hack’n’slash ARPG’ would be more fitting. Yes… it’s an ARPG, but the definition beyond is important to differ it from all the other ARPGs… Like WoW, like Dark Souls, like Enshrouded, like Palworld… all of those also are… ARPGs.
You see where the issue sits? Those games don’t have much to do with each other after all.
Deus Ex? Absolutely! ARPG of the first-person category.
Dishonored fails to implement the RPG elements quite a bit, it can be more called a ‘shooter’ rather then an RPG, but lines with genre-definitions can become blurry. And even then vastly more leaning into ‘adventure’ then RPG.
Call of Duty has no RPG elements noteworthy, it’s clearly an adventure, hence a pre-defined story without personally chosen character progression (In terms of the mechanical standpoint). So FPS-adventure, and simple FPS in multiplayer.
Not the definition of the genre.
Terminology is important, words have meaning. Look it up what ARPG means and entails.
I… actually don’t know what what to say to that.
I mean… if you only do the leveling, the quests, the killing and simply work together with people when it’s enforced… are you primarily interacting with people?
That’s a fairly narrow view of what the game has to offer, as little as I like Blizzard.
It’s like saying that GTA is community focused when you’ve only played the single-player campaign and never done something else.
I don’t know. There’s probably only 10dps difference between them.
But as an addicted min-maxer, that 10 dps is the most important thing in the world.
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Apparently with a bit of math (possibly including algebra and calculus) you should be able to work that out.
I disagree with you. If you go by that definition, most things are ARPGs. An RTS where you directly control a hero? ARPG. An FPS that has RPG elements? ARPG. A platformer that has RPG elements? ARPG.
By that definition, more than half the games in the market are ARPGs.
In fact, by that definition, there are no RPG games unless they’re turn based. BG3? RPG. BG1 and 2, or NwN? ARPG. You control them directly and they’re real time (even if you can pause the game).
Zelda games? ARPGs. Witchers 1 to 3? ARPGs. Skyrim? ARPG.
Yes, a vast amount of games nowadays are RPGs in one form or another.
Yes, cross-genre implementations exist to a vast degree, this is where sub-genres and weighting comes into play.
It’s when you go ‘Yeah, it’s a FPS… with RPG elements’. It clearly showcases that it’s meant to be ‘shoot thing, don’t die’ but wants to do a little bit ‘extra’ to keep you engaged through some extra thing.
Also RPG can only be called RPG if it’s not absolutely railroaded. A fully guided story is an adventure. If you have options to change your character in a way you prefer (classes, archetypes, story decisions) then it becomes one. You ‘form’ the character.
If it misses that it has elements of the genre at best but isn’t a bona-fide RPG.
Also Turn-based RPGs are called ‘TRPG’ by the way. Like the Baldur’s Gate series. Loot-based ARPGs are… simply a RPG + extras. Those extra decide how it can be called. Main focus RPG for the character. Main focus hack’n’slash for the gameplay-loop.
The Zelda games fall more into the line of Adventures, were actually one of the first games which made the lines between adventure and RPG a bit blurry.
Those combinations which cause it to be unable to be defined easily made the modern terminology up after all.
Souls-like… Metroidvania… Rogue-like (albeit barely anyone knows what that term actually entails today) and more.
I agree with that (it seems we’re always hit on miss on what we agree 
). I just don’t agree with the blanket term for ARPG. As I said, if you simply use it as controlling your character in real time in an RPG setting (story or character or whatever), then BG1&2 aren’t RPGs but rather ARPGs, because you do control them in real time. Neither is Skyrim. All those games aren’t RPGs but rather ARPGs. This is the only thing I disagree with you.
ARPGs have become defined by a more specific gameplay loop that excludes all those games.
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The nerdiest sort-of-a-dictionary disagrees with you: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ActionRPG
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I never even heard of that site before
I disagree, but I do admit I might be wrong. However, meanings change over time and if you talk to gamers about ARPGs they will think of diablo-clones. The success of D2 shifted the meaning. Most gamers will look at you funny if you say Skyrim is an ARPG. Or Deus Ex. Becuse the meaning changed.
Well, if you ask me, the success of Diablo established the (common) usage of the term, and Diablo-clones are the games that are most commonly associated with it.
I think it was Hellgate: London that - at latest - made me apply ARPG to other games as well. Created by former Blizzard devs, Hellgate: London tried in many aspects to be a shooter variant of Diablo.
I mentioned definitions because I know people use the term differently.
Have fun with the website, worth a couple of laughs.
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Oh, absolutely! RPG just describes after all… all RPGs.
Then usually comes the main input method. Hence suddenly we have 2 types.
ARPG and TRPG
And from there it goes further and further down.
But for some odd reason the community went along the line to describe hack’n’slash looter games as ‘ARPG’ simply and then go all pikachu-face when someone tells them ‘Yeah… it is… but those 2 million other games too!’ 
I mean, it has a lot of action, being hack’n’slash… but still not the proper term for it.
At best we can say it’s a slang which has come up in the community and doesn’t fit the actual terminology, which is fine if you talk to other people who know what’s meant… but as a descriptive term it simply fails to do it well.
Yeah, but it also entails games like the Dungeon Siege Series, Age of Mythology and Sacred… which are leaning a lot more towards story-based games in how they’re set up.
So ‘diablo-like’ would probably fit the bill best since it’s actually really hard to define the genre-specific design choices.
I mean… affixes? Then D1 falls out of the line, but it has become a major point for those games nowadays since it’s simply a fantastic way of handling loot in terms of variety and enjoyment long-term.
Is it slaying tons of enemies in a short time? Well… then Vampire Survivors suddenly would be the same, which we hopefully agree ‘it’s not’
Is it the mechanical bosses? Also not everywhere, and Guild Wars 2 as well as many other MMOs do the same.
The defining sub-genres which combine into a really well working and new experience that is repeatable simply aren’t properly credited this way, which is why those terms like ‘Souls-like’ came up over time… and why some of them like ‘Rogue-like’ are utterly abused in usage. Compare for example ADOM (one of the biggest old-school rogue-likes) with FTL and say ‘yeah, seems similar’
So while it’s great for catching many initial players it neither does a good job for the companies nor the customers since they then have no clue what they’re actually buying into. Which makes the whole topic such a slippery slope overall.
The meaning hasn’t changed… just companies trying to position their products with a tag which pulled in a lot of people initially, making them more money… and people which had no experience with genre-terminology bought into it.
Doesn’t make it more right suddenly or less wrong, it’s just how it formed.
Otherwise when you buy a book any sci-fi author could put the genre ‘fantasy’ down and be done with it. Why? Because it’s a story which isn’t based on our world’s history, hence… fantasy.
So as @HorusKBZ said:
It’s the most fitting existing term.
Alternative versions of the same system which diablo created with D2 are for example Borderlands. If you enjoy FPS + diablo-clones it’s likely to scratch an itch you never knew was there… and that’s how it goes simply.
But comparing Dark Souls with Last Epoch would simply by genre-definition come a lot closer then the D2 - Borderlands example… which causes confusion.
What do you mean? D1 was the game that introduced gear affixes. You were limited to 2, but everyone was always looking for a King’s sword of haste or similar. D2 just expanded on this and it kept on growing with other ARPGs, but Diablo 1 had affixes and, unless I’m wrong (I can be, on occasion 
) they were the first to have randomized affixes.