I mean, calculating your total resists, or your crit chance/multiplier or any other number of stats is also simple, but there’s a reason why we have those values on the character screen. It’s something the game can do much faster and accurately than we can.
So I agree that we need some way to calculate DPS, though maybe not as Grim Internals does, since I believe that leads to meta and to the shift in mentality I mentioned.
Maybe we can simply use what GD does, which is to display the expected DPS for each skill (although GD only shows it for skills in left/right click and not very accurately) and break it down by damage type.
Using this logic, text editors shouldn’t include spell/grammar checkers, because it isn’t rocket science to pull up external resources. And yet, they do.
What does “consistently” even means in this context?
If you want to compute the expected more damage multiplier, you would need to compute the expected number of ailments on the enemy at any given time.
So, let me riddle you this, assuming that you have a stable 1.5 attacks per second, and that each ailment of the ladle had a 30% chance of being applied, each with a duration of 4 seconds, what is the expected number of ailments on average?
(in case you are curious the answer is 4.41)
Ok, this is a computation that can be made, but getting all the data to plug in the formula is going to be excruciatingly boring, and most players would not even have the math knowledge to pull it off.
Yes, I didn’t put in the cap at 8 yet, but I got monsters to kill!
Took me less than 15min to make and most of that was on reference locking and capping at 100%
I never argued that it was impossible or even difficult to do the calculation for someone that is inclined to put a bit of time and energy (and has the required math knowledge).
What I am arguing is that this is boring and unintresting.
This is exactly the process you end up getting POB. All these things that could be computed, but are just too boring/convoluted to actually compute them in a practical scenario.
fuck community creators (not only) I can tune build myself. But for now, only one big blast builds or dot builds (to some extend) can measure dps. This would be really helpfull.
And I would argue having to go to a dummy (or a boss with fixed HP) and wail on it for a few minutes to get an accurate DPS reading for every item combo is equally boring and uninteresting to be practical. Yet that’s exactly what you are asking for, if your argument for a DPS meter is to have comparable results.
From a game survival meta PoV, you can’t do without content creators nowadays.
Because people see them and get enticed to play the game.
But those creators often do this for a living (or an extra buck)
And how do they make money? By making guide videos (or ad revenue through sites like maxroll)
So you need build diversity in order to get creators to promote them, and thus the game.
And DPS meters kill diversity, because it’s extremely hard to sell a build that is “objectively worse” than another for that class. And selling viewer on the fact all those builds are somewhat equally viable is how a lot of creators I follow make their money.
That’s ignoring the fact that creators would then just notepad/cheat themselves a BiS offline character to make the guide, so they can tell you it’s super good and totally not fake!
And because they make real money with it, yes, a lot will be enticed to do so. It happened in 0.8, it’s definitely happening in 1.0 if you let it.
I laugh at this being considered “easy”. If you have the inclination to get the figured from the game AND the math skills? Hell, do you know how many people I encounter, daily, who can’t create a simple SUM formula in Excel?
You’re asking the impossible here, but just refusing to see past your own arrogance.
What are we even comparing here? Are you saying that getting all the necessary data and going to excel is equally boring to just testing the thing against a training dummy?
Besides, when did I ever say for every item combo?
If you are going to strawman the argument of your opponent there is no reason to argue, you are not going to be convinced nor will I.
I wonder how many of those people you mention are gamers that care enough about their DPS.
As for asking the impossible, please tell me how a DPS meter would work that satisfies your needs but doesn’t become a de facto measurement on how numerical ‘good’ a build is.
One is gonna be more boring to someone than the other, neither is effectively playing the game. I think that’s atleast something we can both agree on?
The original argument was actually that it was impossible to figure out this value without a DPS meter, in several ailment chance configurations.
As you can see, I have proof otherwise. Yes, it’s probably easier to me than other people, because I know the formula for “(de)buff uptime with % chance to apply” from other games. I did assume that someone who’s interested in minmaxing the Ladle would atleast care to look that up. If you find that arrogant, please do tell me what you find a common math knowledge level people should have.
Do I think info on your damage spread may help you in specific situations? Probably, yes.
Do I believe a numerical DPS meter is good for the game? I read the news, I don’t have that optimism left for groups of people as a whole.
Just to be clear, we are still comparing going to a dummy to get a DPS measure, and doing the math yourself to figure out the impact of an upgrade right?
Honestly, while both could be considered boring, they are not even remotely at the same level of tedium, so it’s a false equivalence. Within the loop of min/maxing my character, the role of a DPS measurement is to give me the answer on weather option A is better than option B.
Having a DPS meter ingame means that to figure that out, all that is needed is setting up the two options, and hit the dummy a few times, which is going to be a couple of minutes of my time.
Going on excel means that to get that answer I have to figure out the equation that governs damage, gather all the data, go to excel and do all the calculations yourself.
By your own admission, it took you less than 15 minutes (which implies to me that you more than 10 minutes) just to compute ONE of the multipliers that need to be accounted for.
While it is not literally impossible to do that computation yourself, expecting anybody to actually do that is just surreal to me.
Going onto the topic of common math knowledge, in this particular case most people would have troubles, since most people are not used to reason in terms of probabilities. Also, in general, way fewer people than you would think are used to use spreadsheets, so that could also constitute a barrier.
While it is certainly true that ARPG players are probably much more likely to be math educated, most would probably struggle with this.
It took me about 2min to write down the correct formula, 1min more to find the right Google docs, then about another 5-8 or so to set up the parameters for >100% chance, 0 duration, 0% chance, …
So somewhere around 10min, half of that spent on making it usable by others, but I figured 15min was a safe margin, as I didn’t exactly time it.
And I only had to do it once, not every time a Ladle drops for me. (or anyone downloading that thing)
Compared to … port to Arena (if you have the waypoint), run to the dummy, hit it for atleast 30s for a decent-ish read, write that down, find all the gear you wonna test, redo the 30-60s test, compare that to the previous value, then port back out.
That’s what, 4-5min per Ladle?
So I need let’s say 4 Ladle drops for me spreadsheet to be ‘more efficient’ ?
At that point, 15min investment in getting the “right” Ladle seems fair to me.
Sure, another thing would need another spreadsheet or something, but then again, they need a DPS check every time as well. But again, it was a specific counter-argument to the fact it’s impossible to calculate the gain from a Ladle. Not difficult, not time-consuming, impossible.
Is it more efficient and approachable if the calculations are in the game? Definitely
Would such a tool be a net gain for the game? I strongly doubt it, I have yet to play a single game where DPS meters succeeded in that.
Honestly, it’s sorta like the Family Steam Sharing thing to me. It’s great for a lot of people, but a few asshats will probably ruin it for everyone, even those that don’t want to use it. If you can figure out a way that tells you damage make-ups without making builds mathematically comparable to each other on a single scale, then please, tell me, I’ld love to see such a thing. But I certainly can’t figure out how to do that and I’ve been in enough game communities to not want that toxicity here, at all.
Agreed. Ofc they should add DPS meters, detailed dmg output data, customizable dummies, etc. The more the better. (As long as UI is clean).
The DPS value in GD didn’t account for offensive/defensive ability, resists and dozens of buffs and debuffs going on in the game. It was mostly useful only for levelling. The dmg type spreadsheet was used mostly for checking if your conversions were good. Build performance was usually measured by timing different encounters or dummy kills.
LE could use stats like that, though. Like total weapon damage from GD, all skills should have its base output clearly displayed.
However, GD mechanics are much cleaner than LE. In LE most power comes from affixes which involves too much randomness to have a buildcrafting discourse on the level of GD. It is near impossible to reproduce somebody else’s build. 9 times out of ten, my build will be better than yours not because I made a better buildcrafting decisions but because I landed more T7s on my LP.s.
So first the answer to the basic premise from my side:
Absolutely! It would be amazing to have! No counter-point possible. Extra feature? Nice!
The follow up:
It’s extremely resource intensive for the client and server to compile a list on the side and save it. It takes up major space as well as performance to handle such a thing in a hack’n’slash game.
Why? Because we have sometimes a hundred enemies on our screen which all can get hit for 10 times a second by different individual things.
So to even be readable we wouldn’t only need to compile this into a format that makes sense… but also repeatedly remove entries to not cause the file-size to bloat into oblivion as well as also make sure it’s always stored in real time for the exact moment when you die.
PoE has the same thing asked of them since ages with the same answer: It’s too resource intensive, not worth it for the actually massive performance hit it would cause.
The major issue is performance, DPS comparisons are fairly useful as a metric, and people already do create builds with DPS in mind. It doesn’t change much there.
The toxicity comes when group-play of some form becomes a main thing outside of personal small groups because then with the ease of testing available you can easily bar people which don’t pass an imposed threshold. That’s luckily not the case with LE though.
They won’t though… why should they? And I agree it’s a unhealthy way to cause a competition.
Oh, WoW for example is an ARPG and has it.
But they’re also small-scale in terms of mob amount.
The major issue for a hack’n’slash is and will always be performance because of the sheer scale of individual hits and types per second multiplied by the mobs it affects as well as you personally and which sources caused it.
Loads of info to keep a live record.
That made me laugh.
Which one?
D3?
D4?
Torchlight Infinite?
PoE?
They all fail to provide that.
But yeah, the tooltips we have in LE are generally quite bad, taking far too little info into consideration.
And I would be 100% and absolutely for a properly in-build tooltip-tool for a more sensible DPS result. Hence a screen allowing you to take gear, blessings, crit/non-crit, buffs and debuffs for you and mobs into consideration, as well as damage against normal mobs or bosses with their DR mechanic.
That would be the dream.
But… everyone even dabbling in programming with an interface can do it!
It’s ridiculously easy to make a personal build manager, it just takes a lot of effort to input the information.
Beyond that it’s just basic math available to us freely, just need to input the variables and numbers.
That’s just a little bit beyond ‘Hello World’ standard.
The only hard part is the interface and making it somewhat able to be stomached as well as not a nonsensical list which makes it hard to find anything.
If you call out hefty disparity which shouldn’t exist it’s not ‘toxicity’ but calling out issues.
Toxic is how you do it, but that’s on the people and needs to be hammered into oblivion swiftly to not let it take a grip in the first place.
The more prominent a product the harsher the regulation needs to be for allowed behaviour.
LE gained massive traction, the moderation wasn’t able to step up accordingly.
That’s fairly common, has to do with crowd intelligence rather then it being a singular situation. It happens to most games, only a miniscule amount of communities of any kind manage to handle this problem.
It’s not good… just how things are, and it takes a lot of effort to fix this.
Number-crunching is enjoyment for some.
Like me. I love it. I played Eve Online as a producer/trader. I’m heavily inclined towards it.
The theoretical aspects of a game are as much fun as playing them for me. I love it! And I actually learn a lot about design as well from it.
Yes, my comments can be sharp enough to stun my talking opponent! It’s a well needed skill in my future endeavors!
Down with him! Prepare the barrage of Excel-Sheets!
Ah!
That’s where they went!
Good to know… maybe… I guess?
Yes, it’s still missing a good chunk of useful information… but it’s one of the hack’n’slash ARPGs which do the job the best.
I would love for EHG to get even close to it… or even beyond.
Oh boy… If I would trust the math skills of other fellow human beings then I would’ve gone insane by now.
Reading comprehension, math and deductive ability for problem-solving… a miniscule amount of people sadly have even one of them while you should know all 3 very well.
I would say it helps those without that ability the most.
‘Number higher means better’ is the motto there after all.
And given that the colleagues from 25-50 years of age at my last apprenticeship sometimes weren’t even able to properly handle addition and substraction for a job which requires that daily… I gotta say I’ll not take my chances at the ability of people handling that as a norm
That’s the whole point for proper damage-calc numbers in our tooltips.
Make it possible to have the game accessed by those which are a bit… underdeveloped in those modern and daily needed skill and for all the other people who want to have a proper feedback and want to save time for things which aren’t directly related to the gameplay.
