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Last Epoch Forums

The Problem with dodge aka russian roulette

Rogue
#1

One of the main problem with dodge as kind of the main damage mitigation for rogues in comparison to other mecanics like Armor and Block is that all or nothing principe vs big blows.

while u can “barely” survive one of the big hits with enoth damage reduction or a huge Ward wich regenerates in seconds, not erven 80% dodge can protect u from that.

U can spend time minding your own buisness standing in fire like everyone else til that big blow comes in u havent even realised as “dangerous” because it did noting 3 times before.

Please devs split them up in maybee 3 or 4 individual hits making dodge more equal to other damage mitigating stats.

I literaly have to remind, notice and avoid every enemy who does big hits instead of fast smal attacks because they could snap me out in one hit insdead of leaving me wounded if dodge fails.

Im prety shure Armor works against Dots too wich dodge doesnt so there is absolutly no reason to make Dodge even more useless in comparison by having those big hitters in the game.

Im OK with dying if i fail 3 out of 4 Dodges on one big blow but making this just one roll is just to much gambling.

#2

I do see your point, but that’s just what dodging is mechanically and thematically.

Combine it with the short CD of shift which gets you mobility and invulnerability, Silver Shrouds for the big hits, relatively easy glancing blow stacking, one of the most broken armor generators (multi-stacking blade armor shurikens), and decoy, and I think rogues have enough insurance for it to be okay for dodge to be their main defense.

1 Like
#3

There is a reason for the idols having ‘gain ward on skill use’ and you learn to build defensive layers into your builds.

#4

Its just leading to more fails and deaths in comparison to other damage mitigating stats just by bad luck.
just because its like that “mecanicaly” right now doesnt mean it has to be like that.

Silver shroud procs on the first hit after 10 second cooldown and that ward doesnt last long u cant control it to just make it proc on the big hits. Its just making the gamble more likely to go well. But the Bullet is stil in the gun.
In a game where u can get back to full HP if u surwive the blow within 1 second if u are able push the right buttons at the right time its just not balanced in comparison to Armor etc.
Its to much luck based and much less forgiving against litle mistakes.

If that boss or rare enemy does 8k base damage i one blow and a paladin can survive it with 25% HP left he has the oportunity to turn that table.
If an Archer gets hit by that he is dead.
Why not split that 8k into 4 times 2k? or at least 2 times 4k.
Would make dodge less of a coin flip.

#5

If you don’t like the RNG of dodge, just don’t use it as a defence. There are plenty of others that a Rogue can use that aren’t RNG-based - glancing blow, endurance, armour, resists, ward (to an extent, though there’s also a unique belt that gives ward on dodge).

Armour doesn’t work against DoTs.

#6

i got round about 70-150% glancing blow chance depending on Dusk Shroud stacks from Hail of Arrows and 60-75% dodge. Im alreddy using that belt.
If there is enoth trash arround that ward stacks up to 500.
Im not talking about being to stupid to play my clas.
I can Facetank many bosses with my Marksman with no issues at all.

I dont die verry often but if i die its quite often not by a mistake i did but a case of plain bad luck.

Example:
Decoy wears off -Leap attack from Wengari -Dodge Fails -Death.
And yes i was standing in my smoke bomb with like 12 stacks of Dusk shroud.
and Yes i got 100% crit resist etc. To some stuff u just get like 0 reaction time.
Im OK with dying if i wasnt shifting out of that big red circle or didnt pop my cooldowns at the right rotation. I just dont like roling a Dice if i just die in the next eco just because of bad luck.

Dodge equals up to other mitigations on many smal attacks but sooner or later that big hit that would be mitigated by Armor wil hit and just kills u instant from 100% to 0 and some of them come out of nowere (instant attacks)

thats not god game design.

Maybee im just missing Gear and Health but prety much every character works great with perfect gear.

The possibilities of building up Armor on a Marksman are quite limited BTW.

#7

Which is fair enough, but my point still stands. If you don’t want to face the inevitable RNG-based failure to Dodge a hit & die, don’t use Dodge. Or move out of the way of the big hits since they’re all telegraphed. If you don’t have the reflexes to be able to consistently move out of the way of the big hits then Dodge is a less useful defensive mechanic for you.

#8

As i said some are not!

I can actually just ignore most of that Telegraphed stuff and i know when and how to move out of those i schouldnt ignore.
But i gues its just more simple to assume im just a bad player then taking constructive critique seriously.

#9

Armour is also half effective vs non physical hits.

Dodging as main defense, if actual rng, results in those nasty spikes you mention. In PoE the actual implementation is that dodge chance can be very high, but it diminishes until it’s almost unavoidable to get hit and then works fully again. That often prevents being hit multiple times in a row which can create those big ‘unlucky’ spikes. Not sure how it is implemented here in LE (I’ve yet to level my rogue further to get that feel).

On my paladin I took some big hits too while I invested in mostly defense (though I’ve yet to gear him further and work up to harder stuff). Had to get a good portion of leech to survive. Maybe that’s an option? Feels like melee types are just gonna get hit.

Movement speed is a treasure too.

#10

Apologies, my psychic powers are lacking today so because all you did was complain about the RNG aspect of dodge without mentioning that you were capable of moving out of the way. Assumptions go both ways. You’re assuming I’m just being an ####hole while not mentioning stuff pertinent to the discussion.

It feels bad when your character fails the dodge roll, but that’s the nature of the beast. If you could never fail it, it wouldn’t have a % chance it’d just be straight up damage mitigation (like armour & resists).

Which ones do you feel aren’t telegraphed?

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#11

This may be slightly off-topic but its important… There are lots of discussions on the forum about telegraphed incoming damage and its a fundamental part of how the devs have “built” a lot of the mechanics in the game…

Can you elaborate on what high damage hits are NOT telegraphed so that this can be checked?

#12

I would make the argument that standing in attacks and hoping dodge allows you to not die is a mistake. “But I tried to avoid the attack and failed to do so, allowing them to hit me because dodge failed”…“So what you’re saying is you made a mistake that allowed them to get close enough to even attempt to hit you”.

If you want to avoid that mistake, use other forms of defense rather than relying on dodge so heavily.

Every form of defense relies on RNG in some form…unless you can stack 100% crit reduction there’s always a chance something hits much harder than normal which can be enough to spike even block, glancing blow, armor, etc.

Dodge offloads this by giving you a chance to take 0%, regardless if it was potentially a crit or not. If you’re just facetanking hits and expecting dodge to save you, you’re making a mistake in how you’re playing dodge.

1 Like
#13

Might be language barrier too. English is not my mother tounge. Maybee i failed to specify the problem the right way.

Y but there is something called game balance wich schould also take place. If the game design is make certain Classes fail much more often just by RNG.

Some big blows of bosses are just not ment to be “eaten” no mater how tanky or dodgy u are.
im fine witht hat. Its indicated, just move out. Rogues have plenty of movement for that.
But a 10 minute Bossfight where prety much every attack could lead to instant death if u fail the dodge while other classes are able to shrug most attacks off with some leech after the blow thats not balanced quite wel.

Not off topic at all.

I mostly talking about some few trashmobs or rare enemys hitting verry hard with just single probably slow attacks maybee with cooldown.
Mostly only indicated via animation.
(like that Wengari leap attack (earthquake?) at the altar he comes with a caster wich does nasty AOE frost but thats not the problem)

Maybee its just me but i got problems tracking every animation on the screen when there are literary 50-100 Mobs on it.

Probably wont bother at verry endgame with top gear but makes midgame verry frustrating with killing blows coming out of nowhere from trashmobs while u are otherwhise capable of pulling and tanking whole maps of fast hitting mobs without any issues.
Cant name em bul ill try to keep track and report them in the mentioned topics.
It just doesnt feel verry balanced in comparison.

#14

Are you sure you’re playing LE? Maybe I just haven’t gone far enough in the game (only into low monoliths) but I don’t think I’ve ever seen more than 30 enemies at the absolute max on screen at once…and usually when it’s that many at least half of them die in a single skill usage or two.

#15

Fair enough. :slight_smile:

That’s one way of looking at it. Another is that that more-RNG-based class requires a higher skill to play effectively.

That’s where I disagree with you then. Ignoring the hyperbole of a 10 min boss fight, if classes were “balanced” in such a way that they effectively all had exactly the same type of defences you’d end up with classes that played the same way with-respect to defences. I kinda like how we have defences set up at the moment -

  • RNG-based dodge (even though I hate RNG)
  • health with hp regen & leech
  • the health-substitute that is ward that some builds can generate lots of on demand (Spellblade)
  • % mitigation (resists & armour)
  • RNG-based % mitigation (block)
  • % mitigation below a threshold (endurance)

All of those allow different builds & classes to specialise in several different types of defence that can feel different.

Maybe you should play a bit slower then to prevent the number of mobs on screen at once from building up to unmanageable levels? Everybody has their own limits but if the number of mobs on screen at once is preventing you from being able to detect the don’t-stand-in-this hits then maybe you should just play a bit slower until you get better & can spot them.

LE generally isn’t a game designed to just zoom through the zones, unlike PoE or D3 as an example.

2 Likes
#16

I would not rely on Dodge. Even with the highest value.
Dodge is, for me, the last defense layer. The ultimate thing that MAY work when all other tricks failed. It’s a plus, a very generous plus, but due to RNG it’s not something reliable.
Dodge is here in case you sneeze or cough at the worst moment. :wink:

1 Like
#17

Dodge shouldn’t be relied on if you can’t take 1 big hit.

The big leap attack by the Wengari guy does have a telegraph on the ground. It is a big electric circle. It’s a fast one, so it would be best to prepare to move out of the way when you see it.

I would say you probably need more max HP and maybe some investment into Endurance.

You could be crazy tanky if you convert your dodge into Glancing Blow and then stack Endurance and HP Regen.

1 Like
#18

Actualy the more enemys on my but the less likely those blows are going to kill me but thats something about my build though and has nothing to do with my point.

Good defense if u running a defense heavy build is probably a combination of those and not just one. So its Block plus Armor and there are probably just a few builds out ther who doesnt use leech at all.
However i understand and support the idea of having versatility in the way defense is set up in the game.
Rogue class is just kind of “pushed” in the “dodge” direction in therms of synergy wich makes u way more likely to get onehitted in comparison to other clases.
Especialy in midgame wich can be quite frustrating and could be mostly eliminated by game design.
I dont know if its even possible to get high Armor or Block with rogue since it isnt (wel) supported in the skill trees etc.

Prety much every most copied “build” is designed to do that. Also many skills support it.
The Arena gameplay has phases where hasted big packs of mobs chasing u also pushing in that direction.

#19

Which is why I suggested that a dodge Rogue requires a higher skill to play than a build that focuses on % damage mitigation from mechanics that are “always on”, such as resists, endurance & glancing blow. Though you certainly could do a Rogue that uses resists, endurance & glancing blow to get 93.5% damage mitigation (kinda, I’m including 75% resist as 75% damage reduction) on all damage (including DoTs) below the endurance threshold & 83.75% on all damage above that. Then if you get 100% glancing blow (which is relatively simple for a Bladedancer dual wielding swords) you can even get life on glancing blow in the passive tree, and you’ll still have some dodge!

Boardman’s even done a build that’s stupidly tanky as a Rogue by stacking glancing blow, resists, 55% damage reduction while moving, capped resists and still has a high dodge chance.

You’re never going to have as much as a Sentinel, but you can get a reasonable amount of armour with Shurikens/Blade Shield providing up to 140% increased armour while you keep Blade Shield running (assuming you use the gloves that give +2 projectiles to Shurikens).

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#20

I sassume thats skillpoints in the right tree but also the right gear to make it work that way.
As i said: With top gear that “problem” is probably non existent. Whilst midgame 10% of Trashmobs may potentially kill u in one blow because they are hitting quite hard.
And i dont mean the red circles on the ground wich charge up to blow of after 1,5 secs.