Yes, because beer is so much stronger than absynthe.
Look, I’m not gonna argue more. As I said before I agree with the OP that top gear is hard to come by as it is now. And as I said before, I’ll wait to see what the devs bring to 1.0 before calling for the lynching mob.
But by all means, feel free to continue flaming.
have you ever tried a poop sandwich before? back in the day I played games with .006% drop chances. Thee were no other games, there was no QoL there was no technical progress and so on and so forth. i ask myself why every ARPG player looks in the past with that much nostalgia when the games back in the day were crap because they lack a ton of basics we have today.
Hack and Slay games work because players get constantly dopamine hits. This works for everything. Take a step back and look at D2 as objectivly as you could (I played the crap out of the game back then and had over 4k hours in it) and tell me what you see. I see only a husk a outdated model of rotten code without basic Qol and bad ingame systems with a lot of stupid trash loot that isn’t even balanced after 2 decades. 2 Decades ago it was a pretty awesome game today it’s trash if you leave the nostalgia out of the picture.
I like to play LE but LE has as many weaknesses that will make players mad as a swiss cheese has holes. Itemisation is one of it. Look at it… T20 items are bottom tier items to get into corrupted monos because the game is easy as pie. Good exalts and 1LP items are early corroption stuff if you compare it to progress systems so technicly people aren’t wrong when they start to wonder why so little 2+LP uniques drop. All LE gives you is several stages of rng to get a worthwhile item + several stages of a slot machine to craft it + several stages of rng if you get good unique gear with several stages of rng on top to get LP on a half decent roll. LE is nothing but a overglorified slot machine and gamblers should not play it 
.
First I thought “dafuq?”. Then I thought okay maybe I got something wrong and used google to reread if I understood something wrong about what is determisitic and what not. If you look for the definition of the word you are so wrong you are not even in the same universe as determistic.
Yes we could do this or we could simply say (from my point of view): I think there are to little meaningfull drops and LP of 2-3 should be more common. Now people know where I’m coming from and cann tell me that I’m full of shit because I think there is to little loot and to much trash drops in the game. There is now a theoretical baseline set people can answer to and know where I’m coming from instead taking wild guesses.
Look at how many ways you had to get the loot you needed in D3.
Depeding on the classes this was a cake walk and I am able to be ancient equiped in one day. That is a good thing for D3 because I can’t play D3 more then 2-3 days untill I get tiered of it.
Speak for yourself. i would love a Vanguard:Saga of heroes approach in ARPGs. You go to a good enough crafter with enough skills, the materials needed and the money to pay his fee to get the item you want. I would scream of joy if there was a game with multiple trades to do that are all equaly meaningfull. Sure you can be happy about the fully installed kitchen that is droped by a wolf but I#m not that happy about it anymore.
The slot machine always wis
And all people talk more or less about the droprates. We can’t tell numbers we only can talk about our feelings toward it what instantly leads to a clusterfuck because not everyone feels the same 
. I don’t know when EHG will balance all the stuff that needs to be balanced but as overhyped as the game is I see a very mixed release of LE coming. Then again I’m an optimist with experience so take my words with a grain of salt.
I rather call a “lynching mob” now instead of waiting for the “lynching mob” on release who tears the house down, sets everything on fire and plows salt into the earth and takes a big dump of the rotten corps that formaly was a released game. The analogies get out of hand a bit ^^. I guess you know where I come from. Reimagine the trade topic “war” that raged untill EHG announced the guild system. What do you think would’ve happened if everyone said “I’m okay with not trade!” and “I’m not okay with no trade!”. Absolutely 0 would’ve changed.
TL:DR: I think right now to little loot is dropping even considering playing as the trade faction. I would love to see more 2+LP drops and better aka more meaningfull loot. I whis I could play the game instead of playing the items and skill and passive trees.
Or just… accept that your drop rate is lower and treat it as a challenge mode?
Nextgen ARPG → when leveled, does your level become +1? No! depending on the RNG, your level becomes 1-100.
And to make it more interesting to play, we will make getting a level above 30 extremely rare.
After all, this is what the “players want.”
After all, this is what “determinism” is all about.
Torchlight Infinite in Season 1 and 2 had fully deterministic crafting to the point you could craft an item in town with 6x T1 affixes if you had the currency. As I did this with a few pieces and to be honest it felt amazing to burn so much juice for a spectacular item(s) allowing me to fully tailor my rings/amulets/gloves to my specifications. This wasnt cheap either, even getting lucky you still spent a lot of currency
Then they of course nerfed the crafting in S3 and brought it back a little bit in S4 but it isnt the same
PoE has deterministic crafting you just need endless Divine Orbs, Mirrors, trustworthy people and patience and you can craft an insane perfect item. It only requires a fkn community to do it but there it is.
In reference to the topic regarding LP, I made a thread about some runes a while back
This is the mindset
If you weren’t going to trade why would you go trade? That would be like saying that you only ever want to play in a party with other people so you chose SSF/offline.
It’s not that simple though since drop rates in LE aren’t something that can be objectively defined as “cracked/non-cracked” as the post above you said, some like the current drop rates, some don’t but you don’t have the moral authority to declaim that one side of that viewpoint is correct while the other is wrong.
Changes to make things easier, though we don’t know the details on prophecies or how higher ranks of CoF will affect drops once the lower ranks have moved drops back to something similar to what they are now.
It’s not, it’s totally RNG (unless the devs have said otherwise & I missed it). If you have a 1LP item & want 1 of the affixes on the exalted, you have a 1 in 4 chance of getting it.
Honestly, I still see a great game that I return to regularly. I haven’t played it 10 years ago and stopped. I played it 10 years ago. And then 8 years ago. And then 7 years ago. Etc… Even this year I’ve played D2R for a season and then I played PD2 for a few months. So I still think D2 is a great game.
So basically… you’re talking about trade faction. You go to a player with the materials/money needed and you get the item you want.
I was comparing LE with other ARPGs and in that sense, it’s way more deterministic than most of the top ones. Also, if you want to add affixes to unique and get 1 out of 4, rather than 1 out of 100, then that’s “pretty” deterministic.
So PoE has much higher difficulty, much more RNG in crafting, but it’s ok and LE’s is not?
Yes, that’s pretty deterministic, considering that I was comparing it to other ARPGs, namely corrupting a unique in PoE, which would be what? 1 in 100? At least you know you will get 1 out of 4 affixes instead of a random lottery. I’d say that is pretty deterministic in comparison.
There is also something I’d like to point out, and that is a point of view regarding LPs: Are they supposed to be something every player will be using, or are they like corrupted uniques in PoE?
In PoE, every top tier player will run corrupted or double corrupted uniques. However, 90% of the playerbase will probably not have a single corrupted unique. Those that want corrupted uniques, other than trading, know it’s a gamble with very low odds of success. This is especially noticeable in SSF.
I feel like unique LP is like that. It’s not something most players will have or care about. It’s easier than PoE corruption, but not only will many players not actually care too much about it, I can guarantee you that, the way the game is right now, most people won’t bother with dungeon bosses. Other than maybe doing T1/T2 dungeons to find out, the majority or players won’t do dungeons or arena. They’ll stick to monos.
So most players won’t really use LP. They’ll use uniques as is and if they drop with LP, they’ll keep using those uniques as is. LP is basically a top tier player thing, like corruption is in PoE.
Outside of vaal orbs, you really can’t brick an item in POE, and there’s no arbitrary limit to how many times you can attempt to craft…other than the currency you have to do it with. In LE, I’ve had a 40+fp item give me 3 crafts, and I’ve had a 3 fp item give me 5. Either way, I couldn’t do a single thing to them once they were at 0fp, other than shatter them.
Not only that, but POE lets you re-roll the stat ranges on Unique items, allowing you to improve poor rolls, instead of it just becoming a 500g item.
So yes, it’s better. It’s just not as ‘casual friendly’, because currency isn’t always easy to come by.
It’s not just currency that deters casuals from crafting, it’s also the opacity of the crafting system. Unless a casual player watches dozens of videos, none of which are usually too helpful because they assume you know things already or because they assume that some notion they’re talking about is so elementary that it doesn’t require expanding. Otherwise, a casual player doesn’t really know what to do in order to make a decent piece of gear.
Crafting in PoE is only for the top tier players and content creators and as always been, except during Harvest, which was when casuals were able to actually make some good gear. But of course, we can’t have casuals nearing the top tier players in PoE, so let’s take it out, then cave in and place it back in but nerfed to shit so casuals still can’t craft.
At least crafting in LE is much more transparent and easier to use for a casual, who can actually even craft low level gear as they do the campaign. The randomness with FP is, imo, too big as well. For SSF. For trade, the randomness is fine since you’ll still be able to get the item you want, if you don’t actually roll it yourself.
That’s technically true but in practice not really. If you buy an influenced item that has the influenced mod you really need, while trying to craft a decent gear you can annul it by chance making it so you effectively brick it. Sure, technically you could try to roll the mod back in, but in practice you never will because it’s way more expensive to do that than to just vendor it and buy a new one.
This can even be true for any mod, even if not influenced.
Also, let’s not forget that divines only showed up in PoE at 0.9.3.
I agree that we need some improvements, like something to reroll unique values, for sure. And maybe an item with the rarity of rune of creation that will reset FP. I hope it will make it, in time. However, crafting in LE is much better. Unless you’re a top tier player and want to keep the casuals rabble at bay, like in PoE.
See the problem is that very few people actually see the grey area between total RNG and the co-called ‘item editor’. I’m rather fond of the systems that are currency/resource sinks. Where, given enough materials/money, I can craft the exact item I’m looking for. Even with something as monty-hall as Chronicon’s system, it could still be tweaked to be an immense currency sink. And could even be tempered with having material requirements to ‘craft’ (or attempt to craft) various rarities of affixes, kind of how they currently do with the white, blue and yellow affix slots. Sure, in the end you get the item you wanted, with perfect rolls, if you were that patient, luck and/or rich. But it’s far from the ‘item editor’ that the doom-and-gloomers claim it is.
Personally, I like the idea of building up an item. Get a base I need… you could even have rare bases. Then slowly building up the resources to craft it, over time, into the item I really want. This could happen over multiple crafting sessions, and even span multiple game sessions and/or days even. But when the item is finally finished, and equipped, there’s a grand sense of accomplishment and attachment to the item.
I agree with you. To me, the problem is that in PoE crafting isn’t for casuals. It’s an opaque system, hard to understand and use. Any casual trying their luck in crafting will almost always just waste resources. And to get the really good items you need to be rich. Which, again, isn’t for casuals.
And, to be honest, that’s fine. Casuals will mostly trade for mid-tier stuff and be happy. Or SSF casuals (of which there are also a bunch) will be happy with low-tier gear as long as their build works reasonably.
I personally preferred crafting during Harvest league. You still had a bunch of RNG but you could work towards mid-tier gear by yourself even being a casual player.
As I said, I will wait for 1.0 before forming my opinion on loot. However, the LP problem would probably be easily fixed with a simple change: don’t spend the LP when imprinting. That way, you didn’t get the affixes you wanted, you can work on another exalted (so it’s not simply free, you still need to create good items to imprint and you need to do the dungeon for each try) and try it again. So a 2LP item would roll again, replacing the affixes it had with 2 new ones, as if it was fresh.
That would bring the frustration down and wouldn’t brick items because you could just roll them again. You could also introduce a new currency to reset the LP, but I’d probably just go with free re-rolls. It would still be hard to get the item you want, but not a season/cycle long to get a mid-tier unique right.
As for FP, maybe introduce a new currency that has a chance to reset the FPs but also a chance to just crumble the item? That way you can keep working on the item but there’s always a chance it will crumble and you have to start over?
I dunno. Like I said, we should wait for 1.0. I feel like all these issues will be an SSF only issue, since trade will make everything more available. We’ll see.
Crafting legendary gloves!
Since I don’t expect to get gloves with LP higher than one, I need a second item for merging with only one affix.
Since the affix I need cannot be crafted in any way at all, I have to do this.
I think “all players” want this kind of gameplay…
No. Most players aren’t min-maxers, so they won’t even care about LP uniques. They will take whatever drops and trade for the rest. If they trade for LP stuff that was already imprinted, then that’s fine, but most of the players aren’t gonna bother with imprinting too much.
And they will use uniques for the stats on the uniques, not planning on adding more stuff.
Yes, POE system, functionally, is terrible. It requires 4 college courses, 3 spreadsheets and a website just to figure out. And, I don’t want crafting to work how it works in POE, but I would like to be able to get the same outcomes… I’m even fine with the end cost being the (relative) same.
I mean, in the end it probably will. Once trade is in, you can just buy a bunch of 2-3LPs, work on your exalteds and go imprint them hoping for a good one. As I suggested, it would be nice to be able to re-imprint LPs, but I expect it won’t be hard to be fully decked with 2-3LP stuff after 1.0. Probably not cheap, which would make that only available to top players, but most likely quite achievable.
As for SSF, well, that’s more complicated, just like it is in PoE. Crafting in PoE usually starts with you buying a good base, especially when you want an influenced one. Having to hunt for one is much harder. And other than the very top tier players that play 12h+ a day, you won’t see many builds with top-tier gear. Most won’t even have mid-tier gear.
That’s not really how random/deterministic are defined. The number of possible outcomes do not determine whether a thing is random or deterministic. A flip of a coin is not more deterministic than the lottery because it only has 2 possible outcomes (ignoring landing on it’s edge) compared to millions/billions. Randomness/deterministic refer to the ability to sway the result in a particular direction or the ability to predict the outcome (though obviously, you would have a higher chance of doing that successfully with fewer possible outcomes).
So just because there are only 4 possible outcomes when doing a 1LP unique, doesn’t mean it’s less random than corrupting a unique in PoE.
Randomly breaking an item, especially if it destroys it rather than “merely” prevents further crafting, tends not to go down too well. It was one of the big issues with the old crafting system & why the current crafting system was so well received despite the main change to that particular section of crafting was removing 2 failure states (destroying the item or reducing an affix lvl instead of increasing it).
Deterministic crafting in ARPGs is a term that was created in opposition to total RNG. Hence why Harvest in PoE was called deterministic, even though you were never 100% sure of the result. It was basically a response to D2 by ARPGs that wanted to make things easier to make. It was never meant to be taken literally with the dictionary meaning.
Basically, you have a spectrum where everything is totally random in one end, and everything is completely predetermined on the other. No ARPG falls on either end. They all travel the spectrum of being more random or more deterministic, but that’s only in comparison.
So when I’m saying LE is pretty deterministic, I’m saying that in comparison to most ARPGs. I’m not saying you can predict everything that will roll.
As for the random breaking, it was just an idea. You could craft an item like you do now and once it reaches 0FP you can be happy with it. Or you might want to take a gamble and keep working on it knowing that you could lose it. Or maybe lose an affix, or reroll them, or something else. It was just meant to say that there are mechanisms that could be implemented to extend crafting. But they’d all have to be based on a risk/reward basis.
In terms of being able to pick which affixes you can craft on an item LE is deterministic (within the bounds of allowable affixes on any given item base), but it still has RNG in terms of how much FP is used for the craft.
For making Legendaries (what I was replying to you about), however, you can’t control which affixes get pulled across onto the unique, unless it’s a 4lp unique. From that perspective, it’s still entirely random. If the odds of which affixes were used were shifted somehow from purely 1 in 4 (for a 1LP item) to maybe have a higher chance to pick the exalted affix then that would be less random & more deterministic, but I have no idea if there’s anything like that used.