I mean, in the end it probably will. Once trade is in, you can just buy a bunch of 2-3LPs, work on your exalteds and go imprint them hoping for a good one. As I suggested, it would be nice to be able to re-imprint LPs, but I expect it won’t be hard to be fully decked with 2-3LP stuff after 1.0. Probably not cheap, which would make that only available to top players, but most likely quite achievable.
As for SSF, well, that’s more complicated, just like it is in PoE. Crafting in PoE usually starts with you buying a good base, especially when you want an influenced one. Having to hunt for one is much harder. And other than the very top tier players that play 12h+ a day, you won’t see many builds with top-tier gear. Most won’t even have mid-tier gear.
That’s not really how random/deterministic are defined. The number of possible outcomes do not determine whether a thing is random or deterministic. A flip of a coin is not more deterministic than the lottery because it only has 2 possible outcomes (ignoring landing on it’s edge) compared to millions/billions. Randomness/deterministic refer to the ability to sway the result in a particular direction or the ability to predict the outcome (though obviously, you would have a higher chance of doing that successfully with fewer possible outcomes).
So just because there are only 4 possible outcomes when doing a 1LP unique, doesn’t mean it’s less random than corrupting a unique in PoE.
Randomly breaking an item, especially if it destroys it rather than “merely” prevents further crafting, tends not to go down too well. It was one of the big issues with the old crafting system & why the current crafting system was so well received despite the main change to that particular section of crafting was removing 2 failure states (destroying the item or reducing an affix lvl instead of increasing it).
Deterministic crafting in ARPGs is a term that was created in opposition to total RNG. Hence why Harvest in PoE was called deterministic, even though you were never 100% sure of the result. It was basically a response to D2 by ARPGs that wanted to make things easier to make. It was never meant to be taken literally with the dictionary meaning.
Basically, you have a spectrum where everything is totally random in one end, and everything is completely predetermined on the other. No ARPG falls on either end. They all travel the spectrum of being more random or more deterministic, but that’s only in comparison.
So when I’m saying LE is pretty deterministic, I’m saying that in comparison to most ARPGs. I’m not saying you can predict everything that will roll.
As for the random breaking, it was just an idea. You could craft an item like you do now and once it reaches 0FP you can be happy with it. Or you might want to take a gamble and keep working on it knowing that you could lose it. Or maybe lose an affix, or reroll them, or something else. It was just meant to say that there are mechanisms that could be implemented to extend crafting. But they’d all have to be based on a risk/reward basis.
In terms of being able to pick which affixes you can craft on an item LE is deterministic (within the bounds of allowable affixes on any given item base), but it still has RNG in terms of how much FP is used for the craft.
For making Legendaries (what I was replying to you about), however, you can’t control which affixes get pulled across onto the unique, unless it’s a 4lp unique. From that perspective, it’s still entirely random. If the odds of which affixes were used were shifted somehow from purely 1 in 4 (for a 1LP item) to maybe have a higher chance to pick the exalted affix then that would be less random & more deterministic, but I have no idea if there’s anything like that used.
In crafting you get RNG from FP and also from some of the special glyphs, like removal, sealing or the one that changes the affix to another. Which is fine. Means crafting is mostly deterministic but there’s also some RNG. I like that.
As for the LP imprinting, yes, it’s totally random which of the 4 you get. But if you compare with PoE corruption (which is the similar thing in this case) you do have some control over what might get there. So on that spectrum, it’s “pretty deterministic”. LE might have easily done the same thing as PoE and just dumped random affixes without giving you an option of control.
Sure, some people would like it to be even more deterministic, and that might be the real issue here, but if you compare with top ARPGs, it’s already a lot more deterministic than the rest.
Again, I’m pretty sure that not “spending” the LP and letting us imprint multiple times would fix that.
Kinda I guess, but only by choosing to use a unique with higher LP, or an exalted where more of the affixes are desirable. I wasn’t really considering that as part of the discussion.
Currently many of the most OP builds, where hardcore players spent most of their time grinding, focus finding a great unique (generally with high legendary potential) with 1 LP or 2 LP, sometimes others with less legendary potential with 2 or 3LP.
And farming exalted with the desirable T7 affix.
This process alone is a huge amount of RNG to accomplish it, and yet after all this you have 75 to 50 % to brick your item. ( Of course the other affixes might be useful but when min/max a build anything other than the T7 is a loss and frustration to this player).
I can not see a single bit of deterministic in this whole process of getting a Legendary, when we consider the bigger picture.
Right. But what you’re basically saying is that perfect gear is really hard for the 1% top players and content creators. However, loot is relatively easy for the rest. Crafting decent gear to get your build going to 200-500 corruption is accessible to most players, depending on the build you use.
And I agree that maybe getting that perfect gear is too hard right now. There should always be some RNG involved, but maybe not that much.
I expect trade will be just fine, which is what most players will choose anyway. They will be able to buy the unique with the desired affixes (as long as they can afford it) or they can buy clean LP items and buy the exalted items in bulk and try it themselves. In fact, I expect that will be one of the main strategies for farming currency.
SSF balance is much more complicated, because it will depend a lot on how many of the 1% choose it and how many of the rest of the players do. But I expect re-balances will be done fairly often in the first few months of 1.0, to both factions, once the data starts coming in, until the devs are satisfied with the systems.
There are chase items, and mythology-only items. There’s difficult to get, and there’s cock-tease virgin. The former are fine, the later are what we have now.
In theory I agree with you. But if a top player spends 12h+ each day and after a month or two can barely get a single piece of endgame gear, then that’s an issue. And I’m saying this even as I never ever plan on doing something like that. My days of over-grinding for min-max are long gone and I’m happy now to just have fun without burning out on the grind.
But still, assuming a season/cycle will last 4 months, it should be expected that the top players that grind the game extensively should be able to get lots of perfect gear for their builds in that time. Not saying all the gear should be perfect, but each build should have at least 2-3 pieces of almost perfect stats, along with very good items for the rest. If they don’t, then the system needs to be changed to take that into account.
I’m not saying that getting perfect gear should be easy, but it should at least be reasonably doable within a cycle for those players.
I think the issue there is how one defines “endgame gear”.
In the real world, we have 4 seasons in 12 months, but yes, though how perfect is perfect? A Wings of Argentus/Ravenous Void with 4x max roll t7 BiS affixes? Probably not.
I think they should be able to achieve at least a couple 4LP uniques and a few 3LP ones with good rolls. Not saying perfect rolls, but they should be able to achieve this. After all, if a player that knows the game fully and plays for 12h+ can’t get a 4LP item, then what are 4LP items even doing in the game? Likewise for even a simple 2-3LP. If after all that time they can’t get a bunch of them with a T7 affix, then what’s the point of the system.
The ultimate good gear should be really hard to get, but the players that know the game and put in the time should be able to get some of them within a cycle.
I agree in principle but possibly disagree in magnitude. That said, Trading will definitely change how easy it is to get stuff & presumably the CoF as well (otherwise, as you say, what’s the point).
This is something that at this point, I feel, the answer is just “Because that’s how it is in other games” or “Because I want those items”. But those aren’t particularly good or legitimate reasons. Why should it feel like a guarantee that you can get even one piece of absolutely super incredible perfect “best in slot” gear?
Any item that’s ASIPBISG is, at the end of the day, nothing more than a prestige item. Those items are not required to make a build work, and they’re not required to see or complete any content. It’s just bigger numbers for the sake of bigger numbers. The difference between a great item and a perfect item isn’t even noticeable during gameplay but for you directly comparing the two.
As extremely rare “oh shit” prizes that a few lucky people get to be over the moon about. That should be a good enough reason.
I definitely don’t want those items. I will never again grind a game 12h a day just to get the absolute best gear. But if a player does put in that much time into this game, he should be able to get it. As you said, it should be an extremely rare “oh shit” prize that they should be able to achieve within a cycle. I mean, if you place an item in the game and only a handful of players find one in a couple years, then you might as well not put them in the game. Even for “oh shit” moments.
A 4LP item should be something that a semi-casual player (one that plays 20-50h a week, or thereabouts) will find once in a year or two. Those are the true “oh shit” moments. For a top player, they should get 1-3 per cycle. Otherwise you’re not really rewarding the persons that play your game the most.
After all, if even the top players barely ever get one, what chance does a regular player have of ever seeing them? I think there should be a (very very very small) chance that even a casual player that has only time to play 10h a week will eventually see one fall after a few years.
Much like every now and then in PoE a casual will get a mirror drop. Or a headhunter, or a mageblood. Most won’t ever see those unless they buy it, but there’s always a chance of it dropping.
Also, it should be noted that I’m not saying that a top player should have a 4LP on every build. But within a season it should be expected that one will drop. Maybe for a different build. Maybe even one they don’t want to use and just sell. But it should happen.
I wouldn’t like to see a “One ring” debacle like in MtG.
Also, to be clear, I’m not saying they should be able to get a 4LP wings. But they should be able to get a 4LP mourningfrost or unique of similar rarity reasonably enough.
Why should no-lifeing a game be a guarantee that you get the mathematically best possible items, which no content is locked behind having/not-having, and where the difference between them and the next best is effectively unnoticeable?
That’s an opinion that has become accepted as a fact, but it’s an absolute non-sequitur. In reality, it’s just a less selfish version of “If I can’t have it, nobody should get to have it!” A thing does not completely lose its reason to exist just because it is rare in the extreme.
I don’t think games should reward people who play them 12+ hours a day just because they play them 12+ hours a day.
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