PS5 & LE: Orobyss Follow-up From Judd

First of all thanks for talking to us.

Good to know. I just hope you manage to finish the base game story with these season patches.
That could actually lead to a good timing. From finished base game story right into the expansion story. Could be good.

Looking forward to what exactly you mean with this. Expansions - even if they are really good - always suffer from a shrinking player base. Look at Grim Dawn. These expansions are awesome and really add to the game. But they still only retain 1/3 or so of the purchases of the previous expansion (a dev said so several times on the forums).

Sad to hear.

Personally - if you are going the expansion route - I think you should take a good long look at Guild Wars 2. Yes it’s an MMO but it has a very functional cash shop and a working expansion model. I think even style of the GW2 cosmetics is better suited for LE than the PoE style. It has a lot of silly stuff besides high quality cosmetics.

I bought the deluxe edition (or something like that) back when I bought LE. I have 300 LE points in my bank since the beginning. I still have to find some cosmetics I would actually really like to use. I think the only ones I like using are some portal effects. Everything else is just “meh”.

You really need to up the quality of your skins. In PoE I’m a huge fan of the skill effects. But so far I found those to be quite bland.

I buy the expansion if I don’t feel like you are selling it even though the base game is unfinished (to me this means story is done and we have at least one more endgame system besides Monos) and the expansion itself has a good amount of content.

Already mentionend it but Grim Dawn is the direct competitor here. Just look at the ridiculous amount of content they added with Forgotten Gods/Ashes of Malmouth. Your expansion(s) needs to be on the same level.

If it is more of a D4 expansion then I won’t be buying. Those are just not worth the money for me.

Diablo 4 sells expansions. And if you want to argue that they still give some content for free (seasonal updates), so does Last Epoch.

No its not, I bought into a live service game that sells mtx, box price, and now wants to charge me for an expansion?

Grim dawn isnt a live service game, thats why it has expansions. PoE is a live service game thats why it does not.

I wouldnt blink twice if they went f2p and started selling battle passes and loot pets just like TL:I thats a live service game.

You cant just charge me for everything, I wont be nickle and dimed, you either make all mtx free, and charge for content, or you set up a sub fee, something.

There is a reason no one else in the genre who has seasons, charges for expansions, that is weird and makes 0 sense to splinter content like that.

im not opposed to paying money for things I like, on 1.0 I immediately purchased the deluxe version. The game has done nothing but go downhill with insane powercreep, focus on things I dont care all that much about and a bunch of other random things. Now they want to charge for potential solutions to content problems? fuck no.

Its not my fault they have gone into the red, if the content they have now isnt getting people to pay, more of the same with a price tag wont get them to pay.

its desperation and a floundering of a company going under plain and simple.

Yeah forgot abotu this one, the literal billion dollar company can do whatever they want, they also made a p2w diablo on phones that raked in cash, they can literally do anything and get away with it.

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You ignore words like ‘The planned pay model’ that top off that section you are referring to from the kickstarter page.
A plan has a goal and usually a strategy applied to it, but it’s aspirational.
Sometimes, plans fail and you need to adjust.
EHG just admitted that their plan to fund themselves with MTX sales failed.

LE is a hybrid of being live-service and offline game.

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While me and many others understand that staying profitable is mandatory so the studio doesn’t closes door and the game isn’t gone, have you perhaps considering that it’s even less profitable to go back on the promises like not charging for additional content or adding like pay to win (I know the last isn’t what’s happening here, just using examples).

Consider the following scenario. You decide to ask for money for an expansion (I know Krafton has the deciding power but you have the power to relay to them how strongly your community feels about this and the consequences of such actions). Immediately after the majority of your community says, no we’re not going to buy it and on top of that, we are so against this that we will not buy and supporter packs, we will not buy any MTX and we will not even play the game. This is then promptly followed by changing their positive reviews to negative and the reviews reading. Devs promised there would be no MTX, no season passes and no P2W and they lied just to sell the game as they added a paid expansion.

The reviews are now firmly in the negative, the reputation of the company is in the gutter by their own doing. Suddenly your 1.3 profits looks like a fortune compared to what you made from the few people chose to buy the expansion.

This is not a way to do business. You don’t lie to your entire community and expect there won’t be any consequences from this.

Let’s look at what WILL actually save the game. First let’s fix the massive issues it has.

We have enemies and some bosses who do significantly more damage than others. It’s a huge and noticeable spike that doesn’t feels good and it’s not just the campaign, each map is completely inconsistent based on what enemy types it rolled and this is horrible.

Next we have the difficulty spike going from normal monoliths to empowered monoliths as well as how much harder things like cemeteries and tombs are. power must remain consistent and difficulty should not raise in big spikes, it should be raised gradually at a rate that the average player can keep up with, at least until they are in empowered. After they hit empowered and can farm grand blessings and gear. Gear must be target farmable no matter if it’s a unique or a specific base with a specific exalted affix. Trade must also be made FAR more accessible than it currently is and there should be some method to prevent prices from going insane.

Remember what is the goal for the game. An ARPG that is easier than PoE and harder than D4. Meaning a game that is not directed at bad players nor directed at good players. The target audience is the average, a game whose difficulty stands right in between PoE and D4.

Stop nerfing defenses too. We keep seeing defense nerfs, especially for the ward because some builds at high end get to insane levels but rather than only nerf those builds by making sure the insane high ends are brought lower by limiting extremely high end gear or limiting skills that gain ward per hit, ward is instead hit with a nerf that affects everything meaning the things that were working just as intended and in a good balance spot are now no longer working.

Fixing these basic thing will make people play a lot longer and people who play a lot longer feel far more inclined to spend money on the game.

Then you should start doing other things right. Your MTX are frankly speaking bad. I could open the MTX store right now and there is either nothing or next to nothing I’d want to have because frankly speaking, the skills of your graphics designers aren’t up to the challenge. You need people who are very good at this making MTX around the clock so that people actually want to buy things because they look good. If your quality isn’t up to at least the level of graphical design of PoE 1 then your MTX is unlikely to sell. Remember, up to par with PoE 1, not PoE 2, PoE 1 is good enough.

Then start learning from the success and mistakes of your competition. PoE has alienated it’s average players for at least 5 years now. That is why LE has always had a very good chance of success in the market but you have been making LE harder and harder. Tap the market they have been alienating like you were meant to.

Your monolith system is bad and I am going to say the loud part out loud. Nothing you do to monoliths will change that. It’s a bad system and needs to become something closer to PoE 1 mapping system specifically. You can have ideas like timelines and so on to keep your theme, however you need to allow players to chose their maps and those maps must not be campaign maps or part of them, they must be either hand crafted or partially procedural generation that creates good map layouts for players to clear. It’s just that simple. I’m not saying copying PoE entirely but I’m saying, take notes from what they do well, much like how they took notes from your trading system.

Lastly fix the things that are just weird or don’t work right. You still don’t have minions down right. Playing a necromancer in anything that isn’t a single minion build or explody skeletons (AKA a caster cosplaying as a necromancer) isn’t viable. You are afraid to give the power and make permanent minions very hard to kill. The point of permanent minions is that you summon them and that’s it. If you need to summon them all the time they are not really permanent are they? Whether it’s a timer on their head or an HP bar that depletes very easily, the end result is the same.

Fix things like summoning 2 minions or 2 totems cost twice as much. There is no reason, we invested the points into that, we shouldn’t be penalized twice by having to both pay twice as much mana and wasting points into something that is not really making it more powerful. In fact fix mana because there is a difference between a build needing a little bit of mana to become mana stable and needing mana generating skills to use in between the damaging skills. The more skills a build has to use, the clunkier it feels to play.

If you simply fix the issues and make MTX good I guarantee money follows but if you insist on going this route that was probably set by Krafton but you haven’t firmly set your foot down and said no to them and here’s the why. Then I already explained what happens next.

I have predicted many games would fail if they kept following their path and honestly it’s become quite easy to see how things will end at this point. Last game I said, if you don’t change things the game will fail was The Cycle: Frontier. I told them, if you don’t add a PVE mode with human opponents on it, the game will fail and apparently I was blocked because that was spreading misinformation. 3 seasons later they closed doors because they weren’t profitable so believe me when I say that unless you fix the actual issues with the game and make MTXs desirable, there is no future for LE and going back on your word to the player will only hasten it.

I would be happy to support you guys more financially by purchasing cosmetics on a new league, however the quality of the cosmetics seems to be lacking for me. It feels like an afterthought rather than the main way you are intending to generate long term revenue. Please increase the quality of cosmetic offerings so i will feel inclined to purchase them and support this great game you are making

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As a lot of people mention…. This is great game, but please, if the team/company banging on MTX as a buisness model, it really needs to be better.

I find myself intending to get some cosmetic skin, but only a handful of them I end up buying. And even then, it was just “barely acceptable”.

The game is great. Keep it up! But maybe moving forward, might want to put in more resource on MTX

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100% agreed. I think I bought all the supporter packs, and now I actually feel upset looking back, since 1) their quality was poor and 2) it still wasn’t enough to support EHG.

Hopefully OG supporters get something else other than the forum badge lol.

I haven,t spent my supporter pack 300 points for skins for 2 seasons now cuz they simply ain,t looking good to buy and just been using supporter pack skins :joy: Now with 90mil+ ya got from Krafton im hoping to see new endgame content for S4 cuz S3 was rly boring… PLS don,t add more nemesis/beast systems it’s enough lol Ya need make better quality skins if ya wanna make $$$ AND add more Endgame. I can afford to pay for expansion 20-40$ if it’s good but it will prob kill LE and split playerbase, okay you might milk half player base for expansion for 1 season but then what? Ya gonna loose a lot players if it will be paid probably but it’s whatever your decision to make will see how it goes i guess.

Well my friend, I have some news for you. The original live services, the MMOs, still charge a box price for each expansion, then they milk you for the monthly subscription and on top of that have MTX shops which include stuff like name change, level boosting, appearance change and normal skins, so your argument doesn’t hold.

You want to talk ARPGs specifically? PoE, the behemoth of ARPGs is technically p2w due to the fact you need premium stashes to trade. And trading is REQUIRED if you want to reach the endgame because the SSF experience is dog shit and by dog shit I mean non-existent. So do you want to beat those pinnacle bosses? Well you either spend 1000 years grinding or you fork up money for the premium stash tab. You can also technically not buy the currency tabs and you could technically just have the 4 free tabs you get by default but good luck with that, make a new account and don’t spend any money on stash tabs and let me know how that goes for you.

Next we can talk about the next big live service, LoL, which I admit I haven’t played since Season 3, but back then you needed to buy runes (i think there where called) that gave you an in game advantage by providing stats and even excluding that, every new hero they released was broken as fuck in the first two weeks, so everyone was forking money to buy it because the hero was OP… and how did LoL evolve? We now have skins that are 500 euros.

Last one on the list is Fortnite, you literally have Ferrari cars, Air Jordans, FOMO battle passes and Eminem albums so that’s not even a game anymore, it’s a digital asset store disguised as a Battle Royal FPS.

And I’m not even going to touch the actual, proper p2w… excuse me “pay to skip”, games like Lost Ark or Genshin Impact. All live services end up with some sort of “recurring payment” that is required for the development of the “next season”.

I hope this clarifies “reality” for you.

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There are very specific systems that make Last Epoch my favorite ARPG. Graphics are on par with WoW so about 20 years behind the competition. There will need to be a significant investment to reach the visual quality of the other 2 games. Maybe once you reach that level your MTX store will sustain the company. Until then if paid expansions are the solution, then you got to do what you got to do.

I mean you only have to buy the base game + expansions. You don’t have to buy any MTX. That’s not bad. It’s how games used to be. The MTX help to support a constant season model.

If people paid any money in supporter packs they better get the expansions for free. That was literally the entire point of support packs. I paid money with the understanding these expansions would be free period and that was stated point blank several times.

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Watching the trailer for the PS5 release, it really reads like the expansion and the release are linked. If anything better PR and spacing these announcements out would have gone a long way to spare you a headache.

As far as an expansion goes it still comes down to price, but it seems more hopeful that the game will reach a more balanced state by then.

One last personal note, I like a lot of stuff in the supporter packs, and I like some of the in game purchasables to change up skill skins, but I found them too rich for me. $5-$15 was an ambitious ask for skill skins, and it’s now an almost too late to change without upsetting people who have supported you already point. Seeing the cost of cosmetics makes me worried that the cost of an expansion will probably be floating around the same price as the base game again.

If you want more money out of your cosmetic purchases (not counting the season supporter packs), maybe consider having seasonal discounts that rotate through at each seasons’ change, or having “packs” that have a discounted total price for bundling per class.

I agree with the sentiment but the second statement is wrong. Grim Dawn has paid expansions and AFAIK so does Diablo 3 and 4 and if I’m not wrong Titan quest too.

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Grim Dawn doesn’t share the space of live-service games, it’s a SP game focused on the classic setup of no paid things at all outside of expansions. No MTX, no subscriptions, no nothing.
It’s obvious their expansions will cost something, people don’t work for free.

In comparison you’re right with D3 and D4, which are the black sheep of the genre. It’s Blizzard, a ‘AAA’ company. And like nigh all ‘AAA’ companies they are focused on quarterly numbers and not customer-service of any kind. There’s a reason why the meme ‘PoE good, Diablo bad’ has been born and upheld since the release of D3 even, not changing since then.
Basically all the things which Blizzard screwed up GGG did simply better. They’re also wrought with issues - like every company is - but theirs are simply miniscule in comparison.

And then we have LE… a game which tries to be ‘the forefront of ARPGs’.
I have yet to see any sort of ‘forefront’. They’re overselling and underdelivering, not a single time have they provided a ‘top end’ result.
It’s not a bad game, quite the contrary… it has a good foundation of potential. But like any potential… if you simply squander it it solely keeps being that, potential… it is not realized.
And so we got a shelf-price + MTX + potentially expansion costs.
We got a game which is set up for SP primarily, with only a small portion leaning into MP functions and not a single live-service based one. Which nonetheless goes into the live-service sector - which is the most expensive and dangerous one - trying to compete while ignoring every single upside it could provide at once.

I mean… how inept must someone be to do that? Premium costs for sub-par results.
I’ve acquired the game vastly before 1.0, at the time when Lagon wasn’t even a thing yet, the time when the game was small bit coherent still. Had already issues but no absolutely major ones.
And then it went one after another after another… the implementation of exalted items which caused the initial downfall of the actually well-made crafting system… now having to handle aspects which returned the formerly middling RNG and fluid progression to a sudden RNG-disaster.
Inclusion of LP, which were made so more uniques are viable, causing the whole itemization system for rares to completely break down as with nigh guarantee a unique is now better… few exceptions apply.
The split of the playerbase between CoF (which removes all existing viable live-service aspects entirely… which is the bazaar… more are not existing) and MG, while the live-service aspects of MG are entirely unsustainable and self-destructive.
The implementation of Nemesis into the campaign and allowing you to get Legendary and exalted items early on, screwing over the whole balance of the campaign entirely.
The implementation fo tombs/catacombs and Champions in normal Monolith which caused the entire progression through that stage to be thrown all over the place as well.

And those are only the core issues… not even the auxiliary ones like overall balance, bad positioning of content, shallow implementations, lack of support for older systems (dungeons and arena as example), severe game-breaking bugs like long-term unsolved broken or wrongly working nodes in skills/passive trees, long-term auxiliary bugs like UI issues and more.

I mean… it’s kinda hard to not see major issues when even trying to compare it.
‘But with xyz it worked!’… yeah… ‘xyz’ has good things going for them and didn’t screw up left, right and center at once. Heck… even D3 and D4 have a more clear-cut and solid thing going… D3 is a decent game for someone which wants a more relaxing experience which won’t last a excessive time to finish… and D4 is clear cut with ‘we don’t give you more then the base game anyway, that’s what you get and that’s the end of the line’.
They’re at least straight-forward with showcasing what you get. LE isn’t… EHG promises the vast ocean and delivers puddles which even have rancid water in them on top.

Just include some shop points or fresh mtx in the expansion price and we good. Im pretty sure daddy krafton would allowe that

So you already think about breaking your promises? Now I get popcorn and watch everything breake and burn. You sold at a good time so at least we have one winner here. Looks like making the H&S game of your dreams was more about getting the paycheck of your dreams but that’s just my oppinion and I’m pretty sure some people will even defend this and you’ll have 17 players left playing that will keep telling you how good your game is.

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It was probably true in the very early days…
Then a new act came out in October 2021, they hired several dozens people, and this now large team managed to get another act out in August 2025. Not quite four years.

Regardless of how much money Krafton has brought in, and how the game is monetised, they need to think long and hard on why the more people they hire, the slower the work gets, and why they ran out of money so fast with probably 1.5 million copies sold.

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Those are pretty good questions.

They probably were already quite indebted by the time they had sold all those copies, so a substantial chunk of money went to pay off loans.

EHG certainly doesn’t seem to deserve a reward for an effective company, from all it seems.

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