"Pay to Win": What does that mean, and Where do you draw the line? - Discussion

Okay, so, I will try to keep this post in the spirit of the original question but as convoluted as the subject is I can’t promise I won’t go off the beaten path.

Firstly, I absolute hate the fact that we even have to have the discussion. I have been gaming since the Commodore 64 “computer” and the Atari system were the only things you could play, since that time I have watched the industry shift and change into something I never thought I would (and frankly didn’t want to) see. I personally hate any model with Micro-transactions even existing. Having said all that… I understand that the landscape has changed and it’s not something that’s going to go away anytime soon, if ever. As such, I curb my expectations and understand that if it’s going to be a ‘thing’ I need to at the very least have some baselines regarding things I will accept and things that I will not.

Again, I come from a time when you paid the price of the game upfront and received absolutely everything the game had to offer. So of course my perspective will be heavily biased in that regard. There was no gated content, there was no withholding features or sub-optimal/sub-“fun” game designs implemented intentionally to entice you to purchase the “Solution” to the problem the company intentionally created and having awesome cosmetics meant that you went out of your way to seek those items out (and probably spent hours upon hours in the attempt). This created exclusivity, and it meant that if someone saw your character with awesome gear it’s because you earned it. It created moments like “Oh wow, that guy has “x”…” and “Yeah, my next goal is to farm “x” so I can have that too.” (Looking at you, UO.)

My biggest issue with P2W or MTX in general is this: Anytime MTX is introduced into a gaming economy/system it’s an inherent conflict of interest. The developer wants to make money. (Of course, as they should, everyone should get paid for their work.) and you, the end user, want to experience things in a way that is meaningful and enjoyable. Essentially, the player, is at the mercy of the developer in this scenario, full stop. Especially if they are “invested” (emotionally, not necessarily financially although that applies too) in the game. The question ultimately becomes, why “wouldn’t” a company, attempting to make money, intentionally create bad systems or leverage certain aspects of the game just to get people to pay money to overcome them?

Short answer: The wouldn’t.

Not if they are looking to profit (And contrary to popular belief ALL companies are.) This kind of practice saturates the industry/market with a ton of badly designed, dime- a-dozen games that are created with the sole purpose of nickel-and-diming their players until the next big thing comes out. This also creates a scenario in which longevity is no longer a concern as the primary bulk of income happens through game designs, not sales of the game. It’s not only bad for the players from an individual perspective but it’s bad for the industry as a whole. To be clear; some companies are for more egregious than others in this regard (Which I’ll get to in a minute as per what I will accept and what I wont) but if companies are going to make more money by creating cheaper, shittier games, why would they EVER seek an alternative? So, it perpetuates. The games stay fundamentally flawed while we pry open our wallets in the hopes that we’ll find a modicum of satisfaction with slot machine we’ve picked for the time being.

Keeping all this in mind, my personal opinion on the entire subject is that on a fundamental level, any company that charges for actual in-game progression is exploiting you. Full Stop. There is no-way to do this without artificially and arbitrarily inflating the requirements of said progression to make those purchases seem reasonable. If the progression system is adequate and designed well there is absolutely no need for these types of Microtransactions to exist, period. Furthermore, once these systems are implemented that means that time spent on behalf of the player, means absolutely nothing. Why spend inordinate amounts of time seeking out the best gear, advantages ect, if someone can simply open their wallet and buy what you’ve spent multiple hours trying to obtain. It trivializes the whole “Time = reward” aspect of the game - That is something I deem unacceptable. Period.

Cosmetics, while similar in essence, are not necessarily imperative to my characters progression. Though, many (Myself included) would argue that it is a very important aspect of the game itself because it gives your character individuality. It’s essentially a representation of the idea you have/had for the character and by extension a representation of the player. Most of the time when cosmetics are introduced via MTX it’s something the developers could have put in the game for you to obtain through other means and simply didn’t because they are trying to capitalize on the fact that people want to be unique. Ironically, it effectively elminates the entire point in the process and yet it still works.

Though, as I said, the landscape has changed and if MTX is implemented than cosmetics are something I try to overlook, so long as the prices aren’t designed to gouge my bank account 60 - 100 dollars at a time and it’s not glaringly obvious that the company had these designs upfront and just decided to lock them behind a paywall.

I think the “spirit” of what the companies monetization is, is important. It’s not difficult to tell when something is designed to severely take advantage of you. If prices are fair and the game is good, I don’t generally have an issue spending a bit of money on cosmetcs as I feel that the time invested is worth supporting the devs. This is an important key factor though. The game needs to be robust enough, good enough, and designed well enough that I enjoyed the game for what it IS prior to wanting to spend the money. If a game charges or sells progression materials/avenues/currency/etc, I won’t even play it, so the idea of it being good enough is irrelevant.

IMO, the most acceptable form of MTX are supporter packages. You know that you are directly supporting the creation of the game and as such you receive something in return for it. It’s a win-win for both the developers and the consumer. (Again, so long as they are cosmetic in nature.)

So, I guess this is a really long-winded way of saying that I accept reasonably priced cosmetics as something I tolerate (And will even buy on occasion), so long as the game is of good quality, Progression MTX in any form is a no-go and unacceptable, and I’d rather MTX was done-away with all together.

Sorry for the semi-‘rantish’ opinion piece and I appreciate the opportunity to discuss this with rational people.

Oh and for the record I definitely deem this game as a good, well-designed game and it’s clear through both the game itself and the media the Devs have spoken on, that they truly love their game and are out to provide a unique fulfilling experience.

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My opinion: pay-to-win should be called ‘pay-to-customize’. I am 72 years old, with arthritic hands. There are some games I flat out can’t play without help, like better gear or potions or whatever. I would love to see helpful items in an online shop. I frequently buy them in any game that sells them. Leveling up with less grinding and pain? Sure, I’l do it.

But

I do NOT think anything like that should be permitted in any multiuser context. I play solo and offline. Nobody else should know (or care) if I spend money making my life easier. But, the moment I do that, the character should be restricted from online play.

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Now, that’s an interesting concept I hadn’t heard before, p2w shop but restricted to non-mp.

I’m totally against any form of p2w shops in multiplayer, but I have to say I wouldn’t care what people do in single player, as long as they aren’t also allowed to compete on any “ladder” type systems.

These last few posts are amazing: perspectives I’ve not conjured up! The idea of MTX being only single player or offline (Latter is better, imo) is amazing.

The only acceptable thing for me is the cosmetic purchase. As soon is not cosmetic, you have an advantage due to paying ==> p2w

Well, related to last epoch:

  • Cosmetics are not pay to win, would be a little debate if they affect visual clarity in PvP, but as PvP is not a thing in last epoch, and most skills damage in a small or big area, really I don’t see a possible issue.

  • Something like PoE stash tabs is a minor way of P2W but to me, being a free game, you buy a map, currency and a premium tab and you don’t have a significant disadvantage vs other players in inventory management. All of the inventory management options here are inside the base game, but the game has a buy price.

  • Anything that would allow you to progress further of give you more power only accessible by money shop would be a severe pay to win and for me is a clear red line: XP Boosts, auto-looting, stats on cosmetics, any quality of life upgrade that saves you time, etc.

Also on the side, if the non-shop visuals are horrible on purpose and the shop ones are really cool, that would be also something to get me very angry. Cosmetics from a shop in these type of games should add more variety in your character/skill looks, not a clear upgrade in quality and “coolness” of the visuals.

They have done a really great job of updating visuals as they go (please let me have the updated manifest armor, I beg), and making the base models for weapons and gear look good on their ‘card art’ and in the game. With how good the normal gear looks, I am excited to see how good the cosmetics are.

I have no problem with MTX, as long as its cosmetic. Personally, wouldn’t care about a battle pass looking system either, with themed cosmetics/pets as the rewards for playing the cycle. Long as there is no gear or stat raising, I’m fine.

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For my pea-brain that doesn’t look outside the box (not sarcastic!), anything non cosmetic and/or allows trading cash for any in-game advantage (boost, level skips, currency) is P2W and I’ll pass.

Also, any game that lets you buy boosts is designed purposefully to feel less rewarding and frustrating if you DON’T get them, hence why they are despicable in MMO’s/PvE games as well. See the Assassin’s Creed games to see how this backfires on companies!

I think if you want to offer games as a service (without being a crap company), you justify your MTX with content, not by shortening time with the unsatisfying content designed to be annoying and lure you into making a purchase.

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And that has nothing to do with “P2W” cash shops. Especially something as mundane as storage spaces.

Pay-to-win, from my perspective, has to be viewed from a multiplayer perspective. So anything you can purchase that would give you an advantage would be pay-to-win. So if paying for an alt to skip content is an advantage as compared to someone who doesnt, in a multiplayer setting, then it’s p2w. I think sticking strictly to cosmetic effects is the way to go. Even the stash tabs in PoE can be considered p2w since they add convinence and speed to gameplay.

Sometimes people call P2W the things one cannot really define as BEING P2W.
With that I mean… Is buying a Starter Package(s) in let´s say Lost Ark a Pay2Win feature?
Some would say in an instant a raging YES!!
I personally would actually say No, it is not.

A Starter package is giving me aome Potions, Materials, Auras, Mount & Pet maybe and some other stuff. Now, is this some things that will straight up give Advantages and will make you “better” then everyone else? I would say No.
I would however may call it a Timesaver. But it will not in any case make you BETTER then everyone else who is NOT spending any real Money.
Thecost for you as anyone else is the very same when it comes to Levelling of Character, Weapons, use of everything.
The only thing I see in Lost Ark that is actually giving you “advantages” is the Crystalline Aura. Which again is a very positive Subscription to have in my opinion.

Well, with your example, I disagree. It is a p2w, in a literally manner. You are fine with that, and that is perfectly fine as well! But it is still a p2w mechanic.

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But it will give you an advantage during a Cycle to have these “pay” for items that would mean that you could jumpstart ahead of anyone else - for bragging rights or if there was any competition running (like there might during a cycle).

Depending on the definition of “win” - like first person to complete the campaign in a new cycle, it definitely gives you a p2w advantage over someone who doesnt have the “starter” pack.

Does this mean that if it could not be used to “win” anything it would not be considered p2w?
Let’s say for instance, that buying the pack was only available after the first week of the cycle. Then it could not be used to gain a jumpstart over everyone else, since by that time those who are on top would have no use for it.
(I am not arguing for or against it, I am just trying to understand)

Then it would ‘catch you up’ faster than not. Others might join in late as well, and if they do not get the pack as you did, you paid to win.

Hope this helps! :smiley:

Anything that alters gameplay for a price is pay to win. Regardless of if it’s available for free (locked by grind) too or not.
Even skins. Brighter skins give advantage in PvE - darker ones in PVP. No exceptions. Given modern trend of VFX vomit all over the screen, even in singleplayer game pay-to-win is possible in 3rd person view ARPGs…

Like gear? That would fit that kind of definition.

I mean, if we want to get technical, then buying an early access package is pay2win as well. Why? Well you get early knowledge of the, game and the game systems. Get to plan your build(s) for release, and will have a huge leg-up on the “winning” over someone who is brand new to the game on release day 1.

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Yup, I’d totally agree with that & that’s why GGG’s alpha testers aren’t allowed to take part in any races.

I think one very important thing that a lot of people don’t touch on here, especially when talking about PVP or PVE, is that the “winning” aspect isn’t literally winning the game, but simply having an economic advantage over other players.
At least in economically driven games.

Because even though a lot of these games don’t have direct PVP, you are still competing with other players.

Finding an rare item day 1 or day 5 will drastically change how much you can potentially earn selling it.

So with the ability to progress faster, skip content or outright buy power would mean that you can potentially be in a better economical situation, simply because you reached a certain type of content earlier, where you can farm these rare items.

And even if you don’t play in the Top 1% and you don’t intentionally play the economy game, it still will impact you in some capacity either by buying or selling items.

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