Anything that gives you an advantage either in PvP or leaderboards, so faster leveling, pay to skip, power, crafting mats, etc.
Based on what I have seen not concerned this is will be an issue.
Well, I agree with your point, but my whole goal in opening this thread was to try and understand what people put behind the term “win” when they repeat “this game is pay-to-win!”.
In other words:
is precisely the reason why I opened this thread.
And I got a lot of interesting answers.
That would be an interesting discussion. But a different one.
Sure, I guess if you’re just interested in the language of Pay to Win, but I assumed you were more interested in the underlying meaning. I personally don’t think knowing how others define the word “win” really gets us any farther than an understanding that the word is a flawed choice for the underlying concept.
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I don’t know, I like communication, and when a simple word gets repeated ad nauseam in obvious disregard of its usual English meaning, I find interesting to ask the people using it what they mean.
It helps me understand the discussions, and maybe it can help some readers think about the meaning of common words, as well.
Therefore my question was pretty straightforward:
When I started Last Epoch, one of the first things I did was opening a thread about the “release” of LE asking people what they meant by it, because I was hearing that a lot and couldn’t understand (LE was released in 2019 by standard definition).
It’s just me being old-fashioned and picky about words, feel free to ignore me.
[Note: months later, EHG acknowledged that when they wrote their FAQ, pointing exactly at the issue I was underlining and offering a very good definition. Thanks EHG!]
That said, you did give your own answer to the question, and I thank you for that.
It is a very good answer, too.
Personally, I don’t mind things being sold as long as I can get them in-game as well, time doesn’t matter, if I like a game I don’t mind spending time on it, exactly the opposite, I want to spend time on it, so I don’t feel remotely tempted to buy them (I also never use heirlooms or xp potions in any game, even when I get them for free).
But I understand why more competitive (and full-time playing) people don’t like that in games that include a time limit or a leaderboard.
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If all you want is a list of things that do exist in last epoch that you could spend money to do faster/easier/skip in a hypothetical world where everything is purchasable with money:
1)lvl 100
2)specific blessings
3)specific gear pieces (affixes/base types)
4)free rerolls of affixes and implicits
4b)pay to get max rolls
5)respawn in echoes/boss arenas
5b)hardcore death doesnt count for the price of x
6)shrine buffs in the form of a consumable
7)specific uniques
7b)specific uniques with 4lp
8)Item that allows you to fight x pinnacle boss (obviously not in game right now, but also a very obvious and atrocious form of p2w)
I could go on. If all you’re looking for is what would be considered p2w in last epoch, theres a whole bunch. It’s not a complicated issue like you’re trying to make out, what mcfluffin put is just spot on. And what he raised is a very good point, an actual discussion on this shouldn’t be about the winning part, because winning is subjective.
These always break down to subjective arguments. What’s p2w for one person, another person couldn’t care less about. I think the vast majority people don’t care either way, in the first place. So it’s always a very vocal minority who likes to complain about p2w ruining a game, when in fact, it isn’t.
What really ruins the game, is the game itself. If a game is designed so poorly, with terrible RNG cock-blocks, p2w complaining becomes more exacerbated. Take POE, for example. Stash tabs are their big “p2w” feature. But really, are they? Or, is it the horrible RNG nature of 99.999999999999999999999999% of drops being completely worthless, and the game’s economy, and currency, revolving around crafting consumables? Not to mention a crafting system so terrible, that crafting items are used as currency, instead of for crafting by an overwhelming majority or players.
Sure, any system that allows a player to obtain items with real-world money, that are otherwise unavailable in-game, is bad. THAT is p2w, and a terrible cash-grab by the developer. Otherwise, it’s more like pay-for-convenience. I once had a friend explain his decision to purchase gold with RMT: He said he makes 300$/hour. It takes him 25 hours to farm 100$ worth of gold, in-game. So, it’s cheaper for him, time-wise, to just pay 100$ (20 minutes of his time), and use it to enjoy “fun” aspects of the game, rather than spend 25 hours (7,500$ worth of his time), for the same outcome.
Some people are just arbitrarily against any form of RMT related to games. But, there will always be various advantages some players have over others:
- work hours
- family commitments
- connection quality
- computer quality
- playing with RL friends (sharing of equipment + groups)
- streamers (equipment hand-outs, groups, hints, etc)
…plus many others, income being one of them. So focusing on p2w like it’s some isolated boogeyman, that allows certain players advantages is very disingenuous. Since there are plenty of advantages/disadvantages the different people playing a game have over one another.
The only way to make the game “fair” to everyone is for every player to get guaranteed the exact same game-seed while playing; Everyone gets the same drops. Encounter the exact same configuration of enemies. And bosses that execute attacks in the exact same order/timing for everyone. Everyone plays on computers supplied by the game developer, plays on servers run by the developer, on connections provided by the developer. Otherwise, someone will always have some sort of out-of-game advantage.
This whole p2w thing is just nonsense.
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Pay to Win?
The true real Pay2Win in a game for me is when you pay real money for getting a Character which is truly better in stats, skills and abilities which is only obtainable by using real money.
I think the main crux with pay 2 “win”, is that for some people winning is “doing x first” or “farming to get y”… since their entire fun in this game relies on that competition part (if you can win there must be some competition). So for those people it would take away all their fun if suddenly others can just buy it. There is no competition any more and thus their fun has been taken away.
Usually with MTX there is no real competition aspect to it so people don’t get fussed about p4MTX.
So… winning is about the part that players (not necessarily all, but at least some of the players) want to turn into some form of competition:
- was able to farm x item
- was able to reach y level
- was able to clear z content in # time
On the other hand the world of games has become “old enough” for there to be very different profiles of gamers:
- retired people
- working people (as in not much time)
- family people (again, not much time)
- job-less people
- students/kids
In a world where a jobless person has lots of time to play and a family mother with a job has very little time, the starting conditions for those two people are very different and a competition between them would be very unfair.
If you look at arguments about pay2win, we often end up with those 2 vast categories of people:
- people with lots of time/dedication that want to compete
- people with little time that don’t even try to compete and don’t understand the need to compete about a bunch of pixels (other RL priorities)
Games usually can only cater to one of those groups, as these people’s mindsets are vastly different. That’s like an amateur league marathon runner asking to compete against a lunch-time jogger… 
And if you hadn’t guessed it: I belong to the “not in a competing mood” category… I play games when other family people would slouch on a couch to watch TV… I don’t watch TV, I’d rather play games that are fun and stress-free. And for me competition = stress. 
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I’m not into semantics. P2W starts if anything is buyable that makes the game easier, better or give more power. P4C or P2PF as well as other made up crap is simply bullshitting people because something should not be called p2w. Everything outside of cosmetics is p2w from my point of view. Costumes are okay, pets that are just there without doing anything are fine, interior for housing no problem there if it don’t offer stats.
As soon as a numeric increase is given (Play PoE with only 3 storage tabs for example or look at the costumes in Lost Ark) no matter how tiney it is = P2W and there is nothing besides that term for me because I’m not stupid and I don’t let publisheres get away with changing the name of something that is happening and be done with it.
Wherever you draw the line, Diablo Immortal crossed it, traveled all the way around the globe and crossed it again
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P2W in itself is a stupid term. What are you “winning”, exactly? Any real competitive aspects of games are run in controlled environments, where players are limited in what they can and can’t do.
The only “Pay” aspects I have any real issues with are gating advancement and/or gear/upgrades behind any amount of pay-wall. Or, the actual purchasing of in-game gear from an out-of-game shop. I really don’t have any issues with storage slots, additional character slots, cosmetics, or QoL items (mounts, pets, housing, etc).
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Real life money from Stream income. Literally, that’s winning.
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And for the 99.99999% of P2W-ers thataren’t streamers?
In-game money, prestige, bragging rights, ego, controlling “carry” services, deciding meta, etc.
Except that they are going to get those views anyhow…with or without a P2W shop.
So a bunch of subjective things that can’t really be measured? Gotcha…
Why didn’t you go ahead and add “Massive epeen growth, to impress all the fake female accounts and get sex chat invites” while you were at it?
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In previous posts, your ideology aligns with what @Zaodon has already said; pay-to-win is spending real-life money to purchase in-game power - there is nothing ‘subjective’ about that.
It is an objective fact, like @Zaodon has said, that pay-to-play could negatively impact in-game leaderboards; someone could artificially earn prestige and bragging rights that are easily quantifiable - not subjective.
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No, my ideology is things not available in the game without pay, or outright buying items instead of having them drop…that is what I am against any pay-shop offering. Also, the discussion is what constitutes “winning”, in a game that has no real prizes or rewards. If someone buys some storage space in LE, what are they winning, exactly? So far, the only answer is: “In-game money, prestige, bragging rights, ego, controlling “carry” services, deciding meta, etc.”
Sort of… It is complicated.
I am not too sure why people watch streamers, but I would guess it is because they want the “best” recipe to reach the top of the game, without having to experiment and play the game by themselves.
If you can buy your way to the top through a shop, you reach this same winning-without-playing spot without the streamer, and they would lose clicks. I guess that’s why most streamers hate shops.
Another thing, streamers would HAVE to buy whatever the shop offers, because their reputation depends on being amongst the most powerful players around…
Ironically, streamers are the loudest enemies of pay-to-win, and at the same time its most efficient promoters, by dragging their viewers into a race for power.
You are going to need to clarify. Are you referring to real-life, physical rewards? Earning money? Nobody is accusing Last Epoch of being a “play-to-earn” game.
Virtual games offer virtual rewards. “Winning”, as in “pay-to-win” in video games, is synonymous with “succeeding”, “Earning”, etc.
To use some definitions of win, since you seem to be caught up on semantics:
- To succeed or achieve something.
- To acquire or secure as a result of a contest, conflict, bet, or other endeavor.
When one is playing a game like Last Epoch, a “win/success/achievement” could be earning stronger gear, reaching maximum level, completing dungeons at tier four difficulty.
Now consider the term “Pay-to-win”:
- Paying to succeed or achieve something.
- Paying to acquire or secure [something from] a result of a contest, conflict, bet, or other endeavor.
That answers the first question posed by the OP, “What does Pay-to-Win mean?”.
Depending on the conditions of the game, certain bought features could undoubtedly offer advantages to the purchasing player.
To answer the second question posed by the OP, “Where do we draw the line”, a rational person would concede that this question can only be answered in the context of the relevant game - this also seems to be where you are having the most trouble.
As you have mentioned previously, you “don’t have any issues with storage slots, additional character slots, cosmetics, or QoL items (mounts, pets, housing, etc.)”, but object to “purchasing advancement/gear/upgrades”. You understand that gear and upgrades allow the player to actively perform better (a.k.a. ‘win more’), but the problem goes deeper when considering quality of life features.
- Do additional character slots (if only available through real-money purchases) offer an advantage? (Considering that there could be the option to exploit one-time-only items from multiple characters)
- Is the default stash size purposefully made small and difficult to manage to incentivize purchasing more?
- Do things like mounts, pets, and housing offer benefits that would otherwise be unavailable?
If ‘yes’, then these features would offer “pay-to-win” qualities.
It seems unanimous that anything cosmetic is a safe bet - since the only thing you could win is a beauty contest.
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