Thank God GGG didn’t make the mistake of offering a ‘starter’ equipment crate, or a speed or increased damage consumable in the bundle(s). They we’d have a full-on riot on our hands!
Honestly, it all depends on whatever the definition of “win” actually is. As Heavy mentions in a reply above.
For me if this were always going to be a single player game with no competitive impact (i.e. ladders etc) or some sort of bragging rights, then I honestly do not care if someone wanted to pay real money their way to lvl 100 chars or buy gear instead of grinding for it. It would have zero impact on anyone else. I would consider this nothing more than a legal item editor or savegame cheat endorsed by the game dev/publishers.
in all other aspects it becomes a gray area. What is considered an advantage? Is there any competitive aspect, does your success in the game mean someone else fails? Is there reward (especially real world money prizes).
Is there any impact on other people - its like taking steroids to get stronger - if you want to do that to your own body then by all means, thats your perogative. But if you were to then want to compete with other people (in a strength discipline obviously), thats a no-no as it gives you an unfair advantage against other competitiors.
In your specific example of delaying something till later in a cycle - this will always still be an advantage over someone else starting at the same time. It may no longer be as much of an advantage over someone else who started early, but its still and advantage.
Its like saying to race car drivers, no-one is allowed to change tires until after the 50th lap of a 100 lap race. The car that does, is likely to maintain position based on driver skill, while those that dont change tires are probably going to be left behind or potentially have blowouts. Everyone then has to buy the boost (tires) to stay in the game and keep the field level. Silly example I know.
Yeah, but that also depends on the framework of your competition. You can’t directly compare video games to sports. Unless sports were also to factor in some (very heavy) level of RNG (some bats in baseball are corked, some are made of rubber, other made of balsa… etc etc, and it’s completely random as to which you get to use).
I still fail to see how people feel LE is a competitive game, or any ARPG for that matter. Where is the skill involved in drop rates, LP or stat rolls? Unless every player is playing on the exact same seed, then it’s already an unfair playing field. The guy lucky enough to get all his required unique drops is going to “win” 99 times out of 100.
Now, in the event there are actual races and/or competitions, I would imagine GGG would do their best to level the field… limiting to self-found or a playing in a restricted/controlled league, for example.
In an environment with so many variables, it just seems like silly to cheery-pick what a person finds unfair. Is it unfair to the guy playing alone, while someone else has a group of friends, who might also happen to be streamers, who can funnel him unlimited currency and gg items? Is it fair to a guy with the crappy internet connection, that drops or lags consistently, and can’t afford a better provider? Is it fair to the single dad, with 2 kids who can only play a couple hours a week? Maybe his equalizer is that he works a high-paying job, and can afford to “pay2win” to get the build-defining items, and keep the game fun for him? Who knows.
This pay2win nonsense just sounds more and more, to me, like people who can’t afford, or aren’t willing, to spend any more money on a product than their initial investment. Let’s not even factor in the running cost GGG incurs on development, support and providing servers 24/7 to play on. Maybe everyone would be happier with a monthly subscription cost?
Granted, I’m not for anything that can only be obtained through cash-shop transactions. I think everything should be available in-game as well. But running around nit-picking every_damn_single available cash-shop item as derpdederp PaiTewWeen is just petty.
hashtagunpopularopinion
Where did GGG come into the conversation. We are talking EHG here?
Sports & games are very similar and there are a huge number of RNG factors in sport. The grass is wet, the ball may have a scuff that makes it spin more. Plenty more.
Competitive depends on the definition of winning - if its the first person to get to level 100 in a cycle for a prize or bragging rights, thats competitive, winning - even in an arpg. If there is anything that compares an individual to another in terms of performance etc, then its relevant.
How lucky someone is doesnt come into it imho, everyone has the same chance and there is no unfairness in luck. But if you bought a bag of goodies that makes you luckier or gives you gear immediately that someone else would need to be lucky in the grind to get then thats unfair - but again, only in a competitive environment where the playing field needs to be level at the start.
Ok. This is where I stop arguing with you because now you are taking real life limitations and personal circumstances into account and you are, imho, saying that priviledge allows you to morally accept an advantage over someone else. This has got nothing to do with supporting a business. I am not a woke person but that I will not accept or agree with.
I do not agree with pay 2 win in a competive environment and most definitely do not agree with your perspective,.
Using the incumbent in the genre that also has a cash shop isn’t unreasonable. It can serve as a useful foil or comparator rather than just spitting a load of hot air/hypotheticals.
@vapourfire You say it will give me an advantage. Will it? Really?
It won´t make me better then some1 who do not choose to buy a Package. 85% of the Package contents is not hard at all to get in-game. None of the things makes YOU better, then the ones who do NOT make the purchase.
Is it any of the items that makes me having Bragging Rights within this Package that I bought? No, actually not. What makes me having Bragging Rights, is the items that I need to work my Effing ass off of getting hold of. It will not help me in any aspect of buying Packages, of any kind.
@DirePenguin Then as you say “technically”, then I say we are all guilty. Don´t you agree?!
What I see as 1 of the truly P2W Features is the ones where you have the Option to Pay real Money to boost Stats on your Weapon(s)/Armour(s) to make it better and stronger, and easier for you to stay strong&better. And if you pay even more, you getting even stronger.
Yes, this means if you pay $500, compared to one who only pays $100, you are certainly way in a better position. Of course you are. No doubt about it.
And in the end. If you really find it a great game to play, even though it is “free”, is it anywhere wrong to put some money in the Developers Pockets for the work they actually done for you to have a blast of a time?
Don´t forget that Developing and making a game costs Time, Effort and Money. Lots of it.
In a competitive environment yes. If you are playing on your own where the advantage is entirely for yourself then you could buy yourself as many $$$ boosts as you want.
I keep saying this and will continue to do so. If your play has zero impact on anyone else then p2w doesn’t matter. If your play affects anything that others do or causes others to have to react to keep up or get the same benefit/even out the advantage then thats a benefit to you vs others.
It could be a simple as being the top of the online ladder for all to see. Hypothetically, say you are a gamer and get offered a sponsorship from the fact that you are top dog or get more eyeballs on your youtube channel - if you purchased your way to this spot then thats p2w. So are you affecting anyone else? Well yes, the gamer in second spot didnt purchase his way to top dog but grinded away as much as the could but still didnt get more eyeballs or sponsorship.
1 Like
Oh, the eternal “Pay to Win” debate. Certainly, everyone has his own opinion and consideration, what I can’t see with good eyes, is to try to impose your definition into others, is just better to discuss what are our reasonings behind this definition.
Discussing on the “Win” part of pay to win is an error, as is a complete term to define something, breaking it out to make assumptions only drives us off from the real conversation.
To me, any system that gives you any sort of gameplay advantage is “Pay to Win”. Even if you have a free time-consuming way to reach that advantage, the moment you can instantly get it with real money, then is Pay to Win. I don’t care if there’s PVP involved or not, or if the game is MP or not, you can always be competitive with yourself, and there are also speed runs.
Having said that, I have some tolerance to Pay to Win, as long as I’m not missing on meaningful game content because is under a paywall, and as long as the game monetization model or service sustain relies on this money source.
Well, I said mine and no matter what I say as my opinion, people is fixated as to this Competitive thing. Even though I even said my opinion on that perspective as well.
There is nothing in my example that is Lost Ark where there is COMPETITIVE thing as one call it.
I also said what I feel about when it comes to actually getting STRONGER & BETTER concerning Money distribution.
If you truly want something in Lost Ark you as everyone else has got to work your ass off of to get it. There is no way around that. You want to become a better Lost Ark PVP Battler? Well, good luck, you need to get wotking on that. There is no way around that. You can´t spend real money to become a better and stronger PVP´er. Sry about that.
You want some of the Coolest looking Mounts in Lost Ark? Well, you better start working your ass off of getting it, since you can´t as everyone else NOT spend real Money to get it.
I seen Players in Lost Ark that is even having better equipment then even I am having, and they haven´t spent a darn nickle regarding real cash.
If you want me to take Diablo Immortal as an example… Then that is a totally different matter.
You know what? There are even People saying Path of Exile is Pay2Win. It makes me laugh.
Good point.
Knowledge is priceless - and a head start we have is a two-edged sword.
Eventually, everyone will have the access to the game.
But we were among firstmost players, we passed most of the learning curve.
And the only thing that offsets it globally is a potential… boredom…
Same reason games like hearthstone and magic the gathering are competitive or any card game for that matter.
There is rng involved, and if you had two robots who could predict every move you might reach a point where rng matters. But just because I have a better hand then my opponent does not promise me victory. I have to make sure I use that hand correctly, and feel out the position my opponent is in.
RNG does not inherently rule out skill. its why the top racers in arpgs pretty much remain the best and dont get out done by some random who happened to get lucky. Especially since endurance/playtime is a large skill for something like a 3 day event for an ARPG.
I don’t have 24 spare free hours per day to compete. Unlike Ziz. Or Quin. Or whomever gets paid for playing.
“Racing” is not a competition in ARPGs simply because someone have a disadvantage of having a job, you know. Or wife. Or kids.
Whomever can afford to destroy their health in more optimized way, wins.
There is short races.
Nobodies dont win those either.
Do you think people with jobs become esports pros in general?
No matter what the restriction is on time, they have time to practice, you dont. Simple as that really.
I dont really like ARPGs as an esport, but it does not change the fact that even if they restrict the races to short form, nobodies will never win.
1 Like
I left the post above to warn, not to discuss.
The game shouldn’t compete with real-life affairs like job or family for your precious irrecoverable resource - time. And health, by extent.
Everything looks manageable (and recoverable) if you’re young.
Until you are not.
1 Like
This topic was automatically closed 365 days after the last reply. New replies are no longer allowed.