Cosmetics are not pay to win, would be a little debate if they affect visual clarity in PvP, but as PvP is not a thing in last epoch, and most skills damage in a small or big area, really I don’t see a possible issue.
Something like PoE stash tabs is a minor way of P2W but to me, being a free game, you buy a map, currency and a premium tab and you don’t have a significant disadvantage vs other players in inventory management. All of the inventory management options here are inside the base game, but the game has a buy price.
Anything that would allow you to progress further of give you more power only accessible by money shop would be a severe pay to win and for me is a clear red line: XP Boosts, auto-looting, stats on cosmetics, any quality of life upgrade that saves you time, etc.
Also on the side, if the non-shop visuals are horrible on purpose and the shop ones are really cool, that would be also something to get me very angry. Cosmetics from a shop in these type of games should add more variety in your character/skill looks, not a clear upgrade in quality and “coolness” of the visuals.
They have done a really great job of updating visuals as they go (please let me have the updated manifest armor, I beg), and making the base models for weapons and gear look good on their ‘card art’ and in the game. With how good the normal gear looks, I am excited to see how good the cosmetics are.
I have no problem with MTX, as long as its cosmetic. Personally, wouldn’t care about a battle pass looking system either, with themed cosmetics/pets as the rewards for playing the cycle. Long as there is no gear or stat raising, I’m fine.
For my pea-brain that doesn’t look outside the box (not sarcastic!), anything non cosmetic and/or allows trading cash for any in-game advantage (boost, level skips, currency) is P2W and I’ll pass.
Also, any game that lets you buy boosts is designed purposefully to feel less rewarding and frustrating if you DON’T get them, hence why they are despicable in MMO’s/PvE games as well. See the Assassin’s Creed games to see how this backfires on companies!
I think if you want to offer games as a service (without being a crap company), you justify your MTX with content, not by shortening time with the unsatisfying content designed to be annoying and lure you into making a purchase.
Pay-to-win, from my perspective, has to be viewed from a multiplayer perspective. So anything you can purchase that would give you an advantage would be pay-to-win. So if paying for an alt to skip content is an advantage as compared to someone who doesnt, in a multiplayer setting, then it’s p2w. I think sticking strictly to cosmetic effects is the way to go. Even the stash tabs in PoE can be considered p2w since they add convinence and speed to gameplay.
Sometimes people call P2W the things one cannot really define as BEING P2W.
With that I mean… Is buying a Starter Package(s) in let´s say Lost Ark a Pay2Win feature?
Some would say in an instant a raging YES!!
I personally would actually say No, it is not.
A Starter package is giving me aome Potions, Materials, Auras, Mount & Pet maybe and some other stuff. Now, is this some things that will straight up give Advantages and will make you “better” then everyone else? I would say No.
I would however may call it a Timesaver. But it will not in any case make you BETTER then everyone else who is NOT spending any real Money.
Thecost for you as anyone else is the very same when it comes to Levelling of Character, Weapons, use of everything.
The only thing I see in Lost Ark that is actually giving you “advantages” is the Crystalline Aura. Which again is a very positive Subscription to have in my opinion.
Well, with your example, I disagree. It is a p2w, in a literally manner. You are fine with that, and that is perfectly fine as well! But it is still a p2w mechanic.
But it will give you an advantage during a Cycle to have these “pay” for items that would mean that you could jumpstart ahead of anyone else - for bragging rights or if there was any competition running (like there might during a cycle).
Depending on the definition of “win” - like first person to complete the campaign in a new cycle, it definitely gives you a p2w advantage over someone who doesnt have the “starter” pack.
Does this mean that if it could not be used to “win” anything it would not be considered p2w?
Let’s say for instance, that buying the pack was only available after the first week of the cycle. Then it could not be used to gain a jumpstart over everyone else, since by that time those who are on top would have no use for it.
(I am not arguing for or against it, I am just trying to understand)
Anything that alters gameplay for a price is pay to win. Regardless of if it’s available for free (locked by grind) too or not.
Even skins. Brighter skins give advantage in PvE - darker ones in PVP. No exceptions. Given modern trend of VFX vomit all over the screen, even in singleplayer game pay-to-win is possible in 3rd person view ARPGs…
I mean, if we want to get technical, then buying an early access package is pay2win as well. Why? Well you get early knowledge of the, game and the game systems. Get to plan your build(s) for release, and will have a huge leg-up on the “winning” over someone who is brand new to the game on release day 1.
I think one very important thing that a lot of people don’t touch on here, especially when talking about PVP or PVE, is that the “winning” aspect isn’t literally winning the game, but simply having an economic advantage over other players.
At least in economically driven games.
Because even though a lot of these games don’t have direct PVP, you are still competing with other players.
Finding an rare item day 1 or day 5 will drastically change how much you can potentially earn selling it.
So with the ability to progress faster, skip content or outright buy power would mean that you can potentially be in a better economical situation, simply because you reached a certain type of content earlier, where you can farm these rare items.
And even if you don’t play in the Top 1% and you don’t intentionally play the economy game, it still will impact you in some capacity either by buying or selling items.
Thank God GGG didn’t make the mistake of offering a ‘starter’ equipment crate, or a speed or increased damage consumable in the bundle(s). They we’d have a full-on riot on our hands!
Honestly, it all depends on whatever the definition of “win” actually is. As Heavy mentions in a reply above.
For me if this were always going to be a single player game with no competitive impact (i.e. ladders etc) or some sort of bragging rights, then I honestly do not care if someone wanted to pay real money their way to lvl 100 chars or buy gear instead of grinding for it. It would have zero impact on anyone else. I would consider this nothing more than a legal item editor or savegame cheat endorsed by the game dev/publishers.
in all other aspects it becomes a gray area. What is considered an advantage? Is there any competitive aspect, does your success in the game mean someone else fails? Is there reward (especially real world money prizes).
Is there any impact on other people - its like taking steroids to get stronger - if you want to do that to your own body then by all means, thats your perogative. But if you were to then want to compete with other people (in a strength discipline obviously), thats a no-no as it gives you an unfair advantage against other competitiors.
In your specific example of delaying something till later in a cycle - this will always still be an advantage over someone else starting at the same time. It may no longer be as much of an advantage over someone else who started early, but its still and advantage.
Its like saying to race car drivers, no-one is allowed to change tires until after the 50th lap of a 100 lap race. The car that does, is likely to maintain position based on driver skill, while those that dont change tires are probably going to be left behind or potentially have blowouts. Everyone then has to buy the boost (tires) to stay in the game and keep the field level. Silly example I know.
Yeah, but that also depends on the framework of your competition. You can’t directly compare video games to sports. Unless sports were also to factor in some (very heavy) level of RNG (some bats in baseball are corked, some are made of rubber, other made of balsa… etc etc, and it’s completely random as to which you get to use).
I still fail to see how people feel LE is a competitive game, or any ARPG for that matter. Where is the skill involved in drop rates, LP or stat rolls? Unless every player is playing on the exact same seed, then it’s already an unfair playing field. The guy lucky enough to get all his required unique drops is going to “win” 99 times out of 100.
Now, in the event there are actual races and/or competitions, I would imagine GGG would do their best to level the field… limiting to self-found or a playing in a restricted/controlled league, for example.
In an environment with so many variables, it just seems like silly to cheery-pick what a person finds unfair. Is it unfair to the guy playing alone, while someone else has a group of friends, who might also happen to be streamers, who can funnel him unlimited currency and gg items? Is it fair to a guy with the crappy internet connection, that drops or lags consistently, and can’t afford a better provider? Is it fair to the single dad, with 2 kids who can only play a couple hours a week? Maybe his equalizer is that he works a high-paying job, and can afford to “pay2win” to get the build-defining items, and keep the game fun for him? Who knows.
This pay2win nonsense just sounds more and more, to me, like people who can’t afford, or aren’t willing, to spend any more money on a product than their initial investment. Let’s not even factor in the running cost GGG incurs on development, support and providing servers 24/7 to play on. Maybe everyone would be happier with a monthly subscription cost?
Granted, I’m not for anything that can only be obtained through cash-shop transactions. I think everything should be available in-game as well. But running around nit-picking every_damn_single available cash-shop item as derpdederp PaiTewWeen is just petty.
Where did GGG come into the conversation. We are talking EHG here?
Sports & games are very similar and there are a huge number of RNG factors in sport. The grass is wet, the ball may have a scuff that makes it spin more. Plenty more.
Competitive depends on the definition of winning - if its the first person to get to level 100 in a cycle for a prize or bragging rights, thats competitive, winning - even in an arpg. If there is anything that compares an individual to another in terms of performance etc, then its relevant.
How lucky someone is doesnt come into it imho, everyone has the same chance and there is no unfairness in luck. But if you bought a bag of goodies that makes you luckier or gives you gear immediately that someone else would need to be lucky in the grind to get then thats unfair - but again, only in a competitive environment where the playing field needs to be level at the start.
Ok. This is where I stop arguing with you because now you are taking real life limitations and personal circumstances into account and you are, imho, saying that priviledge allows you to morally accept an advantage over someone else. This has got nothing to do with supporting a business. I am not a woke person but that I will not accept or agree with.
I do not agree with pay 2 win in a competive environment and most definitely do not agree with your perspective,.
Using the incumbent in the genre that also has a cash shop isn’t unreasonable. It can serve as a useful foil or comparator rather than just spitting a load of hot air/hypotheticals.
