You can’t convince him. He only wants to play D2 copies. He also thinks most people prefer trading, while it is quite literally is not the case with LE especially. He can’t accept this simple fact.
He also thinks CoF players want to ruin trading, which is just some perse persecution mania. All I said was people want CoF to be more on par with MG. They can still play MG, even with more quality of life too.
On the other hand, he literally just want CoF to be worse because he thinks it’s just ahit when his playstyle should always be superior and it bothers him if other styles are similarly strong, even if he won’t ever touch it.
This would be true if they wouldn’t want to make them parallel in progression. It has to have some common path they take in order to make progresson linear to eachother.
That is the end goal according to EHG. Othervise CoF should also get rid of the favor system and that would completely brake that faction. This is the only way to reach this goal with CoF buffs. Otherwise limitless trading would always be an infinitely stronger option to gear.
Otherwise CoF should get free profecies too or something, but that is even more stupid.
But they are not parallel in progression. While MG gets better and better items while progressing, CoF does not. In fact, the further you progress the worse it feels because you just get more of the same.
I do not understand why you are alway so black and white or extreme. That is just so destructive.
For example, how about:
1- CoF gets a buff and gets BiS gear in a few WEEKS.
People did not come in and whine after three days. But they started after three weeks.
Same with “RNG”, there is not just one kind of randomness, just a multitude of random distributions. No matter what, equal, binomial, etc., they are all random but differ in their attributes (expectation value, standard deviation, etc.).
It would stil not be equivalent to MG because MG gets BiS in a few days.
I’m not saying CoF can’t have a buff, or that you can’t reduce RNG, or anything else.
I am just debating the equivalency of CoF and MG. And an equivalency is black and white.
Either you can get BiS gear with both in the same timeframe or you can’t. If you can’t, it’s not equivalent, if you can it is.
I don’t think they need to be equivalent because they target different players (there are always exceptions, but this is mostly true):
-MG is about people that like to see a reward on the horizon and grind for it, knowing they will get there.
-CoF is about people that like the surprise of drops and that will often use those drops to make new characters.
So it’s ok that MG is faster and CoF is slower (in my opinion) because they were meant for 2 different playstyles that have different goals and different speeds.
As has been established previously, LE is sort of an outlier in ARPGs in that the majority doesn’t seem to want to trade. And LE is a game that incentivizes making lots of alts. Most of its systems are designed for that. And many of the players it attracted because of that are players that are altoholics. And altoholics usually aren’t in a hurry to get BiS gear. Usually they don’t even bother with it at all.
CoF caters to them perfectly. It’s very easy to get good gear to get your build running and reach endgame. It’s just hard to get gear to push the limits, but that’s not what altoholics want, as a rule.
Now, you can argue that CoF should have a better chance of getting BiS or that MG should have a worse one or both so they meet in the middle, and that’s a fine discussion. Each person has their own RNG threshold that they enjoy and I don’t think it’s a line set in stone, even if EHG does prefer the heavy side of RNG.
But CoF as a system fits like a glove for altoholics and fulfills its function perfectly for them.
In fact, CoF and MG are mostly equivalent (except for MG in your first character, that needs fixing) for all stages of gearing except the high-tier/BiS gear.
So, in reality, as said before, this whole discussion is simply about the availability of BiS gear in both factions and how easy or how hard it should be to get. Which, as I just said, is a personal preference that can be discussed.
But it’s a topic that only affects the smaller minority of people that like pushing content to the limit, since for the majority of more casual players and for altoholics don’t really care too much about it.
Is this true? It doesn’t feel like this is true. In the beginning of a cycle, no BiS items have even dropped. Even if they have, who has the gold for a BiS item in a few days of cycle start? Maybe bots?
I can’t/won’t speak for everyone, but that’s not why I play CoF (and will only play CoF).
I don’t want a second job. MG feels like a second job. I also don’t want a billion affixes combined with RNG on RNG on RNG making getting what I’m trying to get a months-long process of grinding. A way to mitigate that in CoF that would let me get items I’m trying to get in weeks feels right. I’ll play a season for a month, month and a half, tops.
But, as always, that’s just me.
Also, you keep saying that no one plays D3, and clearly that’s not true. You don’t want to play D3. You don’t want LE to become like D3. That’s fine, just be clear about it.
I would love if it we could all take a deep breath and stop saying shit like, “IT WILL KILL THE GAME!”. One thing that is obviously true is that EHG doesn’t want that to happen, and will try to adjust to stop that from happening.
In the first few days there’s barely any BiS, but that’s true for both factions.
Once you get the cycle rolling (and assuming enough people playing MG and no exploits crashing the market), MG can easily gear with top-tier items (the attainable ones, anyway) in a few days. You just need to farm a high enough corruption and sell stuff, it’s not too hard to have gold cap in MG (again, assuming a healthy market) if you farm a lot.
Unless you’re aiming for very rare items, that already happens. You can get gear to let you complete all content reasonably easily.
I never said no one plays D3. In fact, even recently in another thread I said that it was most likely that you had more people playing D3 than PoE for a long time.
What I did say is that if you turn LE into D3, people will leave. Which they will, because the target audience for LE isn’t the target audience that enjoys D3. Much like the target audience of PoE. And much like if PoE turned the game more into D3, people would leave.
Likewise, if you turn LE into PoE, people will leave.
This doesn’t mean that more people wouldn’t come, just that the current target playerbase EHG is aiming for would leave.
Turning LE into D3 would most likely kill the game because then it would be directly competing with Blizzard and D4, and Blizzard is much better at making D3/D4 than EHG. So they would lose their playerbase and most likely not attract enough people from D4.
LE survives because it carved its own niche where it doesn’t really compete with either. And that is its best chance of growth as well.
Help me reconcile these two quotes. I’m not trying to be pedantic, not matter what it might feel like to you. But I do expect a certain amount of intellectual honesty. If you can’t see how that first quote is basically saying no one plays D3, I feel like you aren’t being honest.
Or, if you are saying, “no one came from D3 to LE”, you are also clearly wrong, as I’m from D3, and I’ve seen a number of other posters say that same thing.
No one is saying that LE needs to dumb down it’s skill/passive system. We saying that CoF needs a better way to target farm gear so that it’s a little more competitve with MG so that ‘can see BiS from here’ is achievable in a month. I don’t think this kills the game. Clearly MG hasn’t killed the game… right?
“But you can already do that!”, clearly this is where we disagree.
That is the overall goal, it’s just poorly executed so far. They could tweak it until CoF is not n^3 behind MG but, let’s say just 50% behind in efficiency. It’s EHG who said equality is the goal and I’m all for it.
This is why MG has favor. To hinder it a litlebit. Also favor is what prevents bots from absolutely flooding this game. They exists but they are not that efficient like this.
No it wont if its done right. Example us prophecies for this. Like add prophecies or even lenses thag let CoF player target saod affixes. Rather than just tartgeting said item types. There should also be a rank like say rank 10 to unlock these lenses and prophecies
Pre 1.0 ever single player was on the same playing field when it comes to gear progression. It needs to be brought more in line to what it was before factions were added
Seems u didnt read my entire reply. I said exactly this in it.
All im saying is that the devs said they dont want players to feel forced to trade. Currently late game for CoF feels like u mist trade to get BiS. Which is why CoF needs to be brought much more in line with MG.
Somethings not right with CoF if player start feeling like they need to trade at any point.
Prophecies/lenses would be a great way to do this
Tbh the easier way to do this would be remove the faction switching penalty. Theres already a decent downside to switching with having to gain the ranks as well as favor in MG to even begin buying BiS gear.
As for gold issue when switching this can be fixed by simply removing gold from trading and give MG its own currency. And keep gold for tabs and dungeons.
IMHO i think favor should be MG trade currency for buying and selling. IMO these gold dupes/exploits could have been avoided if gold wasnt used for trading
Again, I never said no one from D3 enjoys LE. I said that the target audience for LE (as in, the people that enjoy the systems that EHG has implemented) isn’t the D3 playerbase. Most of the mechanics in LE are the opposite of D3, including no instant respec, much heavier RNG, nigh impossible BiS and a focus on creating alts.
Obviously some like both, much like you have players that play LE, PoE and D4. But those are clearly a minority.
Most D3 players don’t enjoy LE. And this can clearly be seen by the amount of players that request D3-like features (not that many relative to the rest), like loadouts or pets picking up gold. And the amount that quit when they saw it wouldn’t happen, which is pretty significative.
So yes, most LE players don’t enjoy D3 and would leave if you start implementing D3 features.
This is a simple equivalency. If MG gets BiS in a few days, CoF will only ever be equivalent if they also get BiS in a few days. There’s no way around this.
So you either buff CoF to D3 levels, or you nerf MG to CoF levels, or both and meet them in the middle.
This is actually like I thought CoF would work. Some sort of skill tree where you had a give and take of stuff, like better odds of finding minion affixes, but less chance of finding elemental damage (for example). So that your overall drop chance remained the same, but you could target on the stuff for your build.
The prophecies were a bit underwhelming for me, especially because I dislike that mechanic, since it disrupts gameplay a lot.
If they feel like they need to trade to reach 1k+, there’s nothing wrong with that, since that’s already way past endgame. And none should be able to reach it (according to EHG).
If they feel like they need to trade to compete in arena, just make a separate leaderboard (much like PoE has separate leaderboards for HC/SC and SSF/non-SSF).
It wouldn’t really fix anything. They would just use the exploit for favour instead. The exploit simply targets the currency being used, whether it’s gold or favour.
I don’t know why people think this. I’m 100% sure CoF players would like target farming more than this RNG fest. I’m convinced traders have no clue what the main playerbase really likes to do in ARPGs anymore. Traders have become a minority in what people play these games for. (Except some really hardcore trading games like D2 and I’m not 100% sur about PoE)
It’s really not. When MG players reach BiS gear (according to MG players in a few days), lets say in 20-25 hours… CoF players are still trying to get their first slams in legendaries. Obviously, MG is reaching everything faster than CoF since CoF doesn’t give jackshit early game. CoF level rewards are seriously useless and profecies are kinda worthless before you get to level 9 for lenses and then 12 for double rewards. CoF is so behind early too, I don’t know what you are talking about. Even alting is not better as CoF. You can literally just buy cheap gear for your alts in MG, while we have to pre-collect them while playing a main. Literally same effort. Except we also need to get the exalteds for them with RNG.
There is no phase in the game where CoF is better atm, except in SSF, obviously. Which is even only reason people play CoF (Obviously we can only estimate ratios of how many really play CoF for SSF). Avoiding an open trade market is not the same as SSF. Players are still playing with friends, gifting items to eachother in CoF. Hell, a good portion of us would play MG if the prices were reasonable. If we could farm out currency to buy a few (1-2) BiS items at least, we probably would trade.
I don’t really care because I don’t use MG. But no, I think it should be harder to get gear that lets you push past endgame into high corruption farming.
Because ARPGs are about drop based loot and/or trading. If you don’t like trading, you like drop based loot. Otherwise you’re in the wrong genre of game.
Most (never 100%) would like better target farming (you already have target farming with CoF), certainly.
Some would like less RNG, others would actually like more. So it’s never 100%.
Not really. With CoF you easily get gear to finish the campaign. Then you easily get gear to finish monos. Then you still somewhat easily get gear for empowered monos.
CoF has all the tools to reach Aberoth in 100h or less, which seems like a pretty decent number. It’s just more than the 20h or so for MG.
CoF is far superior for your first character, since you start getting benefits from it immediately, while MG can’t really do much until it reaches exalted gear rank. Though this is more a fault with MG than a merit of CoF.
Other than that, yes, CoF is always behind MG, but until you reach post-endgame (high corruption farming) not by a rate which makes it unachievable.
Like I said, CoF can easily defeat Aberoth in 100h or less.
That is simply a result of the exploits (and also of player psychology). If EHG manages to get a handle on that and stabilize MG, you will have that option.
This is the D2 genre of ARPGs. PoE/LE are in the D2 genre. They are trying to fit that genre of ARPG. Just like there is a Soul like ARPG genre and you have Elden ring type games. I’m not sure how you can’t understand the very basics of what game you are playing.
I’m just listing the facts. This genre of D2 type games are Trading/Loot hunting games. They are designed around the fact you need to kill millions of mobs and you will never get what you want but you can trade for it.
This is what caused D2 to become the legendary game it is creating the foundation of this type of ARPG. D2 would of never made it without trading and the trading sites that helped D2 grow.
I’ve explained this many times. LE isn’t appealing to ARPG players and that is why it’s a dead game right now. It’s missing core components that ARPG players need in this genre and why they are playing other games instead.
Once they fix trading and these core problems in LE the player base will explode and actually retain players. There is a reason why D2R has more players and people watching it on Twitch right now despite being decades old and well into their season. (It’s a better game and has what players want in this genre) PoE is another old game but doing incredible things. LE needs to do better to draw in ARPG players of this genre.
Hopefully this sinks in and if it doesn’t that’s fine. However stop gaslighting and speculating false statements about what I’m saying. You have to understand what I’m saying first which clearly you don’t.
The problem is there shouldn’t be an MG faction. It’s actually driving a massive amount of players away from the game.
It shouldn’t be strong late game and it’s about SSF and finding holy grail items. It might take years to do it. That’s the entire point of SSF. To find ultra rare items yourself even if it takes a decade. It’s about the hunt. If that’s not for you then you should be trading.
I think the biggest problem with MG and CoF factions is that the game makes them look like they’re roughly equals but with different flavors. Except they’re not equal at all, and they can’t be.
