There is a small niche SSF crowd that plays ARPGs however they miss out on the End Game.
An overwhelming majority of ARPG players are playing them for the End Game of Trading/Loot hunting. It’s the lifeblood of the game and Genre. If the economy is great the game is timeless. Which is why D2 is still doing well 20 over years latter.
D2 is still a relevant and competitive game in the Genre today. Which is a testament to what they did a perfect job on.
I think it’s good that ARPGs offer SSF for that crowd that enjoys them however realize what is driving players into those games. It’s the End Game of trading. We are farming mobs to trade for endless hours and years and years.
I’m not saying that it’s not a big part of many people’s game, because I know it is, what I’m saying is that blanket statements like that lump everybody into the pot which is incorrect.
Just because DOOM was the first shooter doesn’t mean every other shooter copies it. The genre is long existing since then. This isthe same with D2 and ARPGs. Same with Dota placing the fundamentals of MOBAs. It’s not copying if somebody makes another new MOBA.
If developers would wan’t to copy D2 they would have done so.
I don’t see anyone else being this narrow sighted. I always seem to find D2 palyers when it’s a conversation about trading and how RMT ruins every ARPG. The conversation always lands on D2 best game and trading is the game. JSP has too big of a part in the community and D2 players can not see gameplay without it.
Why you are so aggressive about it though, IDK. I think I’m not the only one seeing this trend.
Think you are arguing semantics. You are caught up on the word everybody.
ARPGs in this Genre like LE, D2, etc are Trading/Loot hunting games. End game is trading.
If you removed SSF from Last Epoch the game would be fine. If you removed trading from Last Epoch the game would immediately flop. Key distinction being made here.
Again I’m glad they inclue SSF for that small niche crowd (I’ll never understand it). However ARPGs have been designed to be Trading/Loot hunting games. It’s why they work at a core level. You find a godly item you don’t need you trade it for a godly item you do need. It just fits perfectly into the loot hunting RNG. It’s just perfect.
I’m sorry you don’t like blanket statements but lets not argue semantics here. It doesn’t change the facts.
They do copy D2 and innovate on it. Everyone does. D2 is a great model to copy. LE and PoE copy D2. LE copies PoE. It’s great to copy and innovate on great ideas. However… However you don’t want to innovate so much to destroy the great original idea.
That’s all.
MG is not a better version of trading. MG and CoF don’t make LE a better game. In fact they make LE a worse game.
You are being narrow sighted you keep talking about D2 players. You are the only one doing this and bashing them at the same time. This is a you problem. I’m sorry D2 or that player base hurt you somehow. However this isn’t part of the conversation it’s just a side argument you are hell bent on having.
I’m not arguing semantics, I’m stating facts that just b/c someone doesn’t like something that doesn’t mean that it’s automatically the only important part of a game. If you don’t like facts then there’s nothing else to say, making blanket statements that imply it’s the same for everyone is absurd and blowing things out of proportion. The fact is that it isn’t for everyone so to make a statement that implies that it is makes the statement wrong.
Lets look at the real facts. ARPGs are loot hunting trading games for the majority of players. Maybe just mabye that’s why LE is already dead and has less than 10k concurrent players for this season. It’s because MG is hurting the game. It’s not appealing too ARPG players.
Meanwhile PoE has 161k concurrent players on steam alone. ARPG players are looking for a great game that don’t have features taking away from them like CoF and MG. Where the End Game of trading is botched like it is in LE.
I love Last Epoch but it’s really early into their development and some of their ideas aren’t good for the Genre or polished which is why LE is currently dead. (FACTS) How we change this is remove these bad ideas that will never work. Which goes back to my original point. Stop trying to reinvent the WHEEL!!! You aren’t going to do it. No one will.
Thanks
PS - There are more players playing D2R and watching D2R on twitch than LE. What is that saying about Last Epoch.
show me a bigger poll. Ignoring facts to push your agenda is just special.
PoE just had a new league release and has lower all time peak than LE. When cycles start at the same time, we can talk about it. PoE also has an old and stable playerbase, you can’t compare it with a second patch game.
LE is already different. If you don’t like it, don’t try to tell how it should go into a whole different direction. If you want to paly the same games, go ahead.
Yes LE is different in a bad way. The direction they choose is bad for the genre. If they want more players to play their game the Devs will have to change direction and make better decisions.
I have faith in the LE Devs I do like them. I believe if they continue to develop the game and have better ideas and continue to take the great ideas from D2/PoE they can really put together something special.
LE has had some great idea too which other games can innovate on. However that isn’t MG or CoF. They are bad and make LE worse of a game.
I’ve listed the facts. You just have some weird agenda that I’ve called out and now you are upset about that too. I’d rather just have a discussion about right and wrong decisions and clearly LE made the wrong ones. We can see that clearly.
Imo this is what @Mala13 is getting at. CoF was designed to not force people to trade. And yes that even means BiS gear.
BiS gear being as easy as it is in MG vs CoF means that CoF needs this BiS item hunt to be far more on par with MG.
Basically with how it is ita still telling non trade players u want thise BiS gear go MG. Thats not the point of CoF. Even the devs said we sont want players to feel forces to trade. This is why they came up with CoF
I shouldnt have to choose MG to push the limits of a build or push 2k corruption (not intended i know) CoF isnt SSF both factions should have equal levels pushing high corruption. Not just 300c which yes is easy to do in CoF pushing corruption not so much.
EHG either needs to buff late game for CoF or just remove or replace the faction switching penalty. Iv talked about how this penalty can be dealt with in other threads of this type
TLDR is BiS needs to be brought up closer to MG. Will it be on par with MG no and thats due the RNG nature of CoF. Theres tons of room to improve this. Without damging trade
Both factions should be as close to possible when it comes to pushing corruption. One faction shouldnt be harder to push corruption in vs the other. Due to CoF ISNT SSF
People who fetishize D2 like it was this forever untouchable pinnacle of game design can always be relied on to make any conversation about ARPGs worse.
If D2 came out in 2024, for the first time, it would bomb. It was great only by comparison to its contemporaries and what came before it. By today’s standards it is an absolute shitpile that is slow, clunky, shallow, drab, and barren of content. Anybody who can’t understand this can’t form a good opinion about similar games.
Think you are missing the point. SSF is a very small niche crowd in the ARPG genre. Trading/Loot hunting is considered end game. Right now LE isn’t appealing to the ARPG crowd because of bad systems like MG. (Zizaran said it himself it literally makes the game trash and it’s hard to deal with. He loves LE just these bad systems are holding it back)
So most ARPG players aren’t playing LE and it’s only somewhat appealing to the small SSF crowd. Which is fine however it’s missing the majority of ARPG players which is why LE is currently dead. If LE wants to have a successful cycle they have to fix MG and trading in this game. Period!
I can say this, if MG isn’t fixed next cycle I won’t bother stopping back to check out the new content. I’ll just be checking out PoE 2 or something else instead. I’m just not dealing with these bad systems every cycle. Most ARPG players aren’t hence why everyone left to other games. This cycle was a swing and a miss. LE still has some very big core ARPG problems to sovle that other ARPGs aren’t having issues with.
New content is pointless if the core game of trading and the economy isn’t good.
I dont agree with this at all, to me trading is non existent in this game, your literally locked out of trading until your on your 3rd level 100 character. There isnt enough game to lock someone out of system until they’ve beaten 2 to 3 times. I was able to do it last cycle been but when this cycle came around I only wanted to make one character, that character will be long done with the game before I even reach level 8 of MG. Its the stupidest trading system ever put together, probably dumber than Once Humans 6 week seasons. I didnt even bother playing this cycle and probably not another cycle until something is done about the favor grind, Just not enough game to justify the grind. Your interacting with CoF the moment you join it, your always above the level you need to be in MG, you need exalted gear tough luck, you can only buy rare, its just beyond stupid, the people who did that grind a second time somethings wrong with their brains, true definition of easily entertained.
Which is why ARPG players aren’t playing LE. It’s missing the End game of trading. There are pointless time-sink favor grinds in the way. Terrible system to list and find gear. You might have something valuable and someone else might not have the faction rank or favor to buy it. All around it’s bad for the game. There shouldn’t even be an MG. Just have SSF and Trade league. You know because it’s worked for decades already.
Yea it’s really hurting this game. I can’t do it again next cycle. I just can’t. Really hope the Devs figure it out and just gut it.
This is a such a blatant lie and I don’t get the point of it. At worst, maybe if you’re being a dingdong and hoarding all your Favor instead of spending it, it’ll take a long time to hit the last rank and unlock trading for Legendaries. That is not “literally locked out of trading”.
And you don’t even have three Level 100 characters. lol.
Who leveled that Falconer you’ve got in this Cycle then? Your dog?
Telling such easily disprovable lies and making wild exaggerations like nobody’s going to check takes staggering levels of hubris.
You should really just skip to the part where you will allegedly stop coming back then, because they’ve made it pretty clear that they are never going to design trading in a way that lets it become “the core end game” like it is in POE or D2. Nor should they. If that’s a deal breaker for you, the deal is already broken. You’re never going to get what you want from trade in this game, nor should you.
And I agree with that, because the business managers make the game worse for everyone else. Just like in reals life, ha ah.
Part of the problem is a completely unregulated market such as in POE.
But perhaps they overdid it a bit? There doesn’t have to be an artificial symmetry (12 ranks, favor grind) between MG and CoF when in fact they are compeletely asymetrical. They should make both systems good in their own right. Wouldn’t it suffice to just make the items bind on buy and let go all the ranks? This way you could start trading and equipping your character from the get go but there would not be any incentive to open up a shop and to run the market…
Well, the CoF croud would complain of course, wanting to have their stuff right from the start as well. And why not?
Probably because people would progress too quickly then. But that is mostly a problem of missing content. Because right now it feels like EHG is putting a spoke in our wheel just because of that.
The SSF crowd has always been ruining the ARPG genre sadly. I say that not to be rude but they are the Vegans of ARPGs. They hate trading and think it shouldn’t exist. They only want their thing to exist.
Where I could care less if someone wants to SSF just don’t ruin the rest of the game for the majority just because they want to do that.
As for why not? SSF is about the grind not fast progression. If you want fast progression that is Trading. This entire subject isn’t complicated but Last Epoch is making it that way and this is why player numbers are terrible and there is bad retention.
The day MG faction is removed and we just have trading, no favor grind with an easily searchable auction. Is the day Last Epoch will get some players joining and staying. If you want to keep CoF for that crowd that is fine too.
There are only two options for this:
1- CoF gets a buff and gets BiS gear in a few days. We get D3 all over again, everybody leaves.
2- MG gets a nerf and it takes a long time to get BiS. Everyone gets frustrated and leaves.
Take your pick.
They’re 2 factions that target different playstyles and different goals. CoF still has place for improvements (like MG does), but they really can’t be equivalent.
If only because, like I mentioned before, MG is deterministic. You see a 2LP omnis, you farm, you buy it.
CoF, no matter how much RNG mitigation it has, is always RNG, so there’s always the chance it will never drop.
