Make DoT a viable endgame for Rogue

[Heavy]

@Wismerhill_BMC

So if I understand correctly you would rather have “damage per arrow with multishot” only on idols for instance and not on the other two and you’d make it 3 times stronger? Would you still have other support prefixes on helm and body armour for multishot or you’d pick from other existing prefixes?

A single affix that is 3 times as strong might be a bit much, but yeah a slightly stronger affix on one of the slots(perferably helmet, since that’s the slot where +X level to MS is located) and giving the other slots something else entirely, that does not necessarily mean something for Multishot.

And if you do that, you could put another MS affix on the helmet, that boost other characteristic of MS. Maybe additional arrows, this way you could only take only 2 out of 3 good affixes for MS (Level, Dmg per arrow, additional arrows)

I just like to have multiple different tools that compete with each other for specific skills and then you need to change or adapt your build depending on what you want or maybe when you dropped a good helmet with some of those affixes already, you can adapt your build towards that.

@Wismerhill_BMC

I’m glad I was able to … I mean I’m glad TriKster was able to convince you

Don’t forget Drelkor’s Compass unique bow that reduces mana cost by 4 in MS builds. Puncture typically scales with attack speed ; to me the taxed mana cost for AoE should be below the mana cost of MS or DA.

Yeah of course the Unique Bow is a big part of this, since it has -Mana Cost and is the slowest Bow Base with the highest base damage, which is very synergistic.

Of course edge cases and specific uniques always need to be a part of a discussion, to see “the whole picture”, but discussing something like mana costs should also be done by looking at the base skills.

I am sure Puncture with 8-10 Mana Cost would feel alot smoother and if you need to counteract the mana cost, you still can build towards that with Mana efficiency and mana regeneration or use a spender/filler build.

@Wismerhill_BMC

Especially on a forum thread that’s called “Feedback and suggestions”.
Don’t you think that the few points we commonly agreed on should be used as food for thoughts by the devs?

I agree and i can 100% asure you, teh devs read all of this.

What or if they do something with this, is totally up to them.

There might be even something we don’t see here and the devs considered already.
But occasionally a dev might even hop into the discussion and give some thoughts, but they usually try to avoid that, since a dev comment in a discussion can heavily impact the direction fo a discussion.

@Wismerhill_BMC

There is a little contradiction in those two sentences. Making a strong statement in the first sentence and recognizing the inability to be able to back that up in the second. Anyway, disregard this comment, I don’t think anything good would come off that specific discussion.

The thing is, i played soooo many builds and i have a pretty good feeling how well a build that i am playing is performing.

At the time i played that build, it did felt decent, not the best and not the worst and i have not pushed it to it’s limit.

The old empowered timelines were very much easier than the current ones, but i have no doubt, that the build i played a few month ago, would not have “issues” in the new empowered MoF.

I was thinking about doing it just because you said:

@Wismerhill_BMC

Show me a puncture build that easily deals with a level 100 timeline “ending the storm” or “The age of winter”

Usually i like “challenges”, but i really don’t feel like to prove anything to someone.
Especially since i don’t enjoy that playstyle.

[XLVI_carpo]

@Kirvin

Poison rogue can hit multimillion DPS idk what you’re on about.

Are you playing sich a build yourself currently?

Where do these numbers come from? Dummy damage after hitting the dummy for 20 seconds without moving a bit? What’s your gear?

Maybe you can show a clip of your build doing an empowered timeline.

Ailment build rely on stacking ailments with high chances and high attack speed. Often if you get all that to have a decent dummy damage in the real game you need to m8ve a lot. Especially in the higher timelines you need to actively avoid damage by moving (even more so in Arena). So you don’t get that many stacks on enemies because the ailments can’t stack while you move and stop attacking.

Your statement looks like you have seen a click bait guide title somewhere and asume that this numbers are easily achievable for everybody without any effort. In most cases this is not possible.

Maybe I’m wrong. If you are running such a build that took you around - let’s say - 40 hours - without editing your save files - my apologies!

[Vidya]

@Wismerhill_BMC

Makes sense. I like the idea of putting off the armor shred node. I also hate that if you want to play poison puncture it’ll make puncture costs mana ; seems unjustified to me.

Do you have any idea how to give a constructed feedback to the devs in hope that they can implement it in the next release?

Poison conversion node
I doubt my suggestion is something that could make it into the next release because it’ll involve graphically restructuring the skill tree. My guess is the devs will only want to do something like that when they work on the unused bottom half and underused upper right of the skill tree.

As for constructive feedback, it would come down to how 15 mana is too costly for a skill that needs to be spammed to build up enough poison stacks to function, and how the attack speed penalty from the previous nodes also makes it harder to build stacks.

If the devs are willing to rework the bottom left side (charge up branch), think it’d make a decent alternate home for a poison build. Could have nodes that let you do multi-level charge attacks with each charge level applying more stacks of poison at once, and have the charge time be faster based on your attack speed.

[Llama8]

@Wismerhill_BMC

Do you have any idea how to give a constructed feedback to the devs in hope that they can implement it in the next release?

That’s what the forum (& this thread) is for.

[Atterana]

Have you played Poison Rogue? Blade Shurikens is the STRONGEST DoT build in the GAME right now.

[Shrukn]

I agree with this thread of Puncture being too weak but its just tedious to play

ive played Marksman to 87 and I dont like archers but I wanted to play it and see, I tried basically every skill

For endgame Multishot and Detonating Arrow are vastly superior due to gearing and just straight up damage. I have basically every type idol such as Multishot damage, Increased Damage while holding a Bow etc

DoT builds are my favorite for self killing and dont really like them in LE due to the fact I prefer to place a long lasting non stackable DoT on them and just move on or stack different DoTs, having to shoot trash monsters multiple times is just tedious and just feels like im playing a bad hit based build and the gear % bonus. Havent played this character in months though

I even had at one stage a juiced Hail of Arrows setup that still underperformed vs DA/MS, so any buffs at all are welcome to other skills

[TriKster]

Yes, but it’s not the purpose of an arpg to have one outstanding skill that everyone plays because of its mechanical advantage. Only because Shurikens scales poison stacks really good doesn’t mean Rogue, for me especially marksman is in a good spot for Ailment builds.

@Kirvin

Poison rogue can hit multimillion DPS idk what you’re on about.

Again, i’m pretty sure you are talking about the build that uses all the broken mechanics from Shuriken, Decoy & Acid Flask together. Yes there are couple of build guides on YT for that.
We are in a Beta, and the purpose of a beta is to help the devs making the game ready for release. And for skills to give them as much feedback as we can to have the most possible balanced game for release and season 1. I dont want to see 50% of the playerbase playing one skill again like in PoE for 2 years. To me it sounds like you are saying ‘‘there is one strong poison build for Rogue, so rogue is in a good spot with ailments’’, which is not the case, because LE has a huge amount of build variety.
There are two main reasons why Shuriken works great with Poison.
First: The attack rate of the Shurikens is way higher than any other Rogue build. (offense)
Second: You can Kite while attacking. (defense)

The Number one reason why Ailment Builds are currently either underperforming, awkward to play or not satisfying is that it feels like playing a weaker Crit Build version with the same playstyle. With Multishot i have to stand still but can deal big crits and stuns against the enemies. Therefore both offense and defense is good since you can kill enemies before they hit you.
The playstyle for many ailment builds doesn’t change! You stand still, cast your skill and you wait until finally the ailments stacks reach the number of a single burst Crit hit from Multishot. During that time you are more vulnerable to enemy dmg.
That’s the reason why skills like Shuriken, Warpath, Minion Builds like Bleed Beastmaster work with ailments, because you can easily kite and focus around survivability rather than hitting enemies by standing still.
And when you additionaly have a skill like Bleed Puncture that lacks AoE, of course its hard to compete with MS or DA currently. Again, Ailment builds are ALL viable for endgame Monolith. Arena is something else.
And it’s not a problem with the numbers on Puncture, it’s a mechanical problem for Ailments in general to Puncture.

[Kirvin]

@XLVI_carpo

Maybe you can show a clip of your build doing an empowered timeline.

Just google it. It’s not a new build or anything just Shuriken + Flask Decoy allows you to stack a ton of poison. Several people have made videos of it.

@TriKster

Yes, but it’s not the purpose of an arpg to have one outstanding skill that everyone plays because of its mechanical advantage.

Then make a thread about that? Did you read OP or the thread title?

[TriKster]

@Kirvin

Did you read OP or the thread title?

I did, and i responded to OPs suggestion on Penumbral Ambush for Puncture.

@Kirvin

Then make a thread about that?

There is a thread about this already with good suggestions from some community members:

The Issue With Bows (Rare Ones)

So, I realize this is long and fixing the problem I present is neither easy nor quick, but I wanted to mention it so that maybe the devs will see it and keep it in mind. I mean this to be purely constructive, as I love this game, and I think this is something that probably needs to be addressed at some point for it to be the best it can be. Marksman flexibility in a bad spot right now, especially in terms of rare bows. It feels very pidgeonholed into uniques because there are 3 ‘good’ bow build…

@Kirvin

Maybe bleed puncture is weak? Haven’t tried playing it.

And yes, i can highly recommend to try it. You will see the mechanical differences.

@Kirvin

Poison rogue can hit multimillion DPS idk what you’re on about.

@Kirvin

Just google it.

Probably StefTheDudes 5mio Poison Rogue.

Btw welcome to the community! I saw that you have joined recently.

[XLVI_carpo]

@Kirvin

Just google it. It’s not a new build or anything just Shuriken + Flask Decoy allows you to stack a ton of poison. Several people have made videos of it.

Yeah, you are right. There’s one obviously broken overpowered build/mechanic. I don’t think that this means that Rogue ailment builds are in a good spot in general. Especially not in all the context that got disussed here in this thread.

[Kirvin]

@TriKster

There is a thread about this already with good suggestions from some community members:

Yep that’s a pretty accurate thread.

@TriKster

And yes, i can highly recommend to try it. You will see the mechanical differences.

Why would I bother making a character for something multiple people here are claiming is very weak in endgame content?

@TriKster

Probably StefTheDudes 5mio Poison Rogue.

Boardman also made a video with pretty much the same thing, and there’s at least one forum guide for it.

[Wismerhill_BMC]

@Shrukn

DoT builds are my favorite for self killing and dont really like them in LE due to the fact I prefer to place a long lasting non stackable DoT on them and just move on or stack different DoTs, having to shoot trash monsters multiple times is just tedious and just feels like im playing a bad hit based build

@TriKster

The Number one reason why Ailment Builds are currently either underperforming, awkward to play or not satisfying is that it feels like playing a weaker Crit Build version with the same playstyle.
The playstyle for many ailment builds doesn’t change! You stand still, cast your skill and you wait until finally the ailments stacks reach the number of a single burst Crit hit from Multishot. During that time you are more vulnerable to enemy dmg.
That’s the reason why skills like Shuriken, Warpath, Minion Builds like Bleed Beastmaster work with ailments, because you can easily kite and focus around survivability rather than hitting enemies by standing still.
And when you additionaly have a skill like Bleed Puncture that lacks AoE, of course its hard to compete with MS or DA currently.
And it’s not a problem with the numbers on Puncture, it’s a mechanical problem for Ailments in general to Puncture.

That’s why I proposed a buff to the mutilate node of Puncture. It is the only node that completely change the way ailments work (by consuming all the bleed stacks every 3 hits).

An alternative change could be that every 3 hit you add ailments to the targets equals to what 10-15 hits of your build would produce but you add a 2s cooldown to puncture on third hit. This way you would hit 3 times your targets (preferably AoE with a cheap mana cost on Penumbral Ambush) then dodge things around for 2 seconds then repeat.

My initial post focuses on 2 things: 1. change the way puncture ailment is played 2. buff the damage of the skill. This can be achieved in many different ways.

[Synie]

2m 7k dot tick isnt enough for rogue?

[Heavy]

@Kirvin

Why would I bother making a character for something multiple people here are claiming is very weak in endgame content?

Because just because multiple people “claiming” something doesn’t necessarily mean, that you won’t enjoy a specific build.

And when you play a given build your own, you can give your own accurate feedback.

There are soooo many skills that are very unpopular, because they are “weak” or “clunky” or what ever and i had some of my most fun builds ever with some of those skill.

[Shrukn]

@Kirvin

Boardman also made a video with pretty much the same thing, and there’s at least one forum guide for it.

Are you referring to the glass cannon Level 100 Bladedancer who has zero AoE, low HP, low dodge and generally seems only good for boss killing after stacking multiple debuffs and ramping poison for multiple seconds? Yeah that pumps out huge DPS and a good boss killer but its not a solid build overall - thats one of the last builds I would want to run Empowered Timeliness with 150% increased monster damage among other things

@TriKster

The playstyle for many ailment builds doesn’t change!

Yeah exactly why I dont like Puncture or Serpent Strike a great deal as clearning Monoliths are pretty painful. I much prefer applying a massive DoT on a monster and leaving them to die

One of my favorite builds ever was Firebird Wizard in D3 - with the set bonus once you applied a certain threshold of damage the monsters would burn until they died regardless of what it was, bosses would take a while to die but it was nice knowing you applied a DoT which will kill the monster and you just played around that

The only thing I would really like to see is something in Puncture like “Applies 10 stacks of bleed instantly, monsters cannot have more than 10 stacks of bleed. 50% less bleed duration” or something

[TriKster]

@Shrukn

I much prefer applying a massive DoT on a monster and leaving them to die

Yes, mixing Puncture with HoA helps alot with the AoE issue and you also get some good additional dmg.

@Shrukn

One of my favorite builds ever was Firebird Wizard in D3

Was a nice playstyle yes. One of my favorite builds in D3 was Jade Harvester for Witch Doctor. Applying all the different DoTs and finishing off the enemies with a massive explosion. The Disembowel passive node for Rogue is a good mechanic that kinda comes close to that.

[TriKster]

@Wismerhill_BMC

An alternative change could be that every 3 hit you add ailments to the targets equals to what 10-15 hits of your build would produce but you add a 2s cooldown to puncture on third hit.

I know what you mean, yes. This is actually what Disembowel on Rogue tree does right, but only for bleed currently. It would also help that every skill gets a seperate internal Ailment effectiveness based on the skill mechanic. For example Warpath gets a 50% ailment effectivness because of the high attack rate and movement ability. A higher mana cost and slow hitting skill like poison Detonating Arrow becomes a 200% base ailment effectivness (only for poison because shock might be too powerful ). And a skill like Puncture that is imo focused around stacking bleed or poison stacks something like 150%. Was just an example, might be broken numbers for some skill and this needs testing of course but i hope you get my idea? I also like the Dex stacking idea on the skilltree for Cinder Strike that gives you additional 6% Fire damage over time per point of dex. Something like this could be already in the skill for Puncture. Each point of Dex gives 2% increased bleed duration additionaly to 4%increased dmg that we currently have, something like that.

[Wismerhill_BMC]

@Shrukn

One of my favorite builds ever was Firebird Wizard in D3 - with the set bonus once you applied a certain threshold of damage the monsters would burn until they died regardless of what it was, bosses would take a while to die but it was nice knowing you applied a DoT which will kill the monster and you just played around that

I’m currently playing a build that’s very close to that. I call it Singularity Burn Hail of Arrow where you just empty your mana pool to launch a massive HoA. It’s really good for empowered timelines and amazing as a boss killer. After ramping for a while HoA deals 120k damage per tick with my current average gear. I think it can do a lot more.

Marksman, Level 100 (LE Beta 0.8.1e) - Last Epoch Build Planner

I’ll put up a guide soon. If there’s already a build or a guide for this build, bear with me, I recently joined and don’t know all builds already covered.

[Kirvin]

@Heavy

very unpopular, because they are “weak” or “clunky”

Yeah after using Puncutre while leveling I have like 0 interest in touching it as an endgame skill with how it currently works. Clunky is a good word.

@Shrukn

Are you referring to the glass cannon Level 100 Bladedancer who has zero AoE, low HP, low dodge and generally seems only good for boss killing after stacking multiple debuffs and ramping poison for multiple seconds? Yeah that pumps out huge DPS and a good boss killer but its not a solid build overall - thats one of the last builds I would want to run Empowered Timeliness with 150% increased monster damage among other things

You don’t really need 11mil DPS… you can definitely just make yourself do less damage and be more tanky.

[Shrukn]

Ive actually played a Hail of Arrows build which pretty much one use killed everything up to Timeline bosses but then I tried Detonating Arrow and Multishot and never went back

If Hail of Arrows followed you around… but its so mana intensive and I had to drag mobs into the AoE to get coverage