I know, but he did say that he didn’t like the thing & that he felt it was bad. You even included that in the quote then proceeded to tell him the very same thing.
@Llama8 It’s not really an argument though within context. How did ARPGs or MMOs come about? By not following the pre-defined rules of what is and isn’t a genre. And I also take using a genre’s term with a large grain of salt for this reason. It’s incredibly restrictive to inhibit feedback and progress because it needs to fit within a term that isn’t even well defined. Ask 10 people what makes an ARPG an ARPG and you might get 10 different answers.
The sealed suggestion you quoted is taken out of context. You missed the part where I said; “Seal Power cost of affixes are based on the type of stat and its tier. For example a T5 stun avoidance could cost 10 Seal Power, where as a T5 HP could cost 80 Seal Power.”
And yes, experimental affixes do have multiple tiers if that’s what you’re asking.
@DirePenguin I’m not sure where you’re getting this information of everything I say is objective. And I’ve said multiple times in my post “I THINK” or “IMO”. Do I need to spam it more often to satisfy your argument of semantics?
@DJSamhein I think a lot of people do play classes for 10-20 minutes and change their mind. I’ve done it myself in other games.
And even if you’re right, why not just give more agency to the players?
And do you really think people would complain about being able to respec mastery? How would doing so lose identity of the class? That’s like saying a Retaliation Golem Necromancer doesn’t have an identity because they can switch to Flame Wraith Necromancer. I don’t agree with you argument there.
I can see where you’re coming from with experimental affixes being rarer, and I do agree in principle, but I wonder if that’s the real reason for the guaranteed Experimental Seal design. The reason I think that is there are Uniques with <1% chance of dropping with LP1. So following that same logic shouldn’t they get the same treatment?
It seems like to me the newer added systems/content are just inconsistent with existing ones, which isn’t a bad thing in that it shows there’s an attempt to make improvements. But I think it’s a little silly to suggest that certain content or system shouldn’t be changed once it’s already in the game. Especially for balance reasons when it’s clear that there are major balance issues throughout stats and classes.
I did, but unless they’re going to make it such that you can only get 1 seal, it’s always going to be a guaranteed power creep over what we have at the moment. Even just 1 guaranteed t4 seal is power creep unless you’re very lucky.
Some of the details will be different but they’ll all contain certain similar themes, because they’re all talking about the same genre.
It is, you just don’t like/agree with it. Genres exist for a reason, whether you decide you want to accept that or not.
This is true & when it’s done well, borrowing things from other genres can significantly improve a game.
Fair enough, I’ve not done enough Mages to have a look.
Absolutely, LE used to have “protections” rather than resistances & they functioned quite differently, I kinda miss them but it’s significantly simpler for most people to use resists than protections.
Not really related to the discussion, but this can be said about any game genre. That’s how MOBAs came to be as well. But go farther back in history and you see the same thing for every genre: sneak’em up, FPS, point & click, etc. After the first few games, genres started being created as people created different mechanics like platformers, shooters, etc.
Because some things aren’t about having agency, they are about how the game is done. Why not let them change their class so they don’t waste those 10-20mins as well? Why not let players choose passives and skills from all classes so they can have more agency?
Having agency isn’t an argument for the validity of an option otherwise games would simply let you do everything, which is clearly not the case.
You don’t have to agree. I don’t feel that way. But many players do. Just read one of the several threads on this topic that you refuse to read.
Loadouts in D3 is giving players agency. With a click of a button you completely change your build. Many players don’t like that, me included. They feel like their demon hunter isn’t special just because the demon hunter is every single build at once. They’d rather struggle to get a different build going. To them the journey to max level is a huge part of the fun. Personally, I can’t play more than a week in D3 without getting bored out of my mind and I only make 2-3 characters because of that.
There is a big spectrum between D3 swapping everything on the fly and games that don’t let you respec barely anything (like Torchlight 2 only letting you respec the last 5 levels or Grim Dawn where you can’t respec the masteries at all).
Games try to position themselves on the spectrum according to the players they want in their game. LE clearly doesn’t want D3 players in their game. They’re much closer to PoE or Grim Dawn.
I’m pretty sure that if EHG had made mastery choice at character creation rather than further into the game, barely anyone would ever complain. So it’s mostly a perception issue.
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This is it. This is why I generally don’t like builds that need to use a “leveling build” to get to a threshold and then you can start playing the build you wanted to play in the first place. I’ve struggled through so many crappy starts, just because I want to use the skills I’ll have at end-game, as soon as they come available. Not only after I have the gear, passive, skill points to make them powerful. It’s the journey aspect. I want to be an X build, so as soon as I can, I start playing X build… regardless of how viable it is.
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Yes they would. The Devs don’t want, it’s their philosophy and many people support it being that way.
But y’d better discuss this particular subject in this other thread, we already have a heated discussion about this and there are lots of recent arguments from both sides
I don’t think they are inconsistent, they are just different. It’s new content, new type of affix done in a way that bring more mechanics and more diversity to min/max builds or even just more options for leveling.
The devs tried something new and it was a good thing (IMO).
I’m not against suggestions that changes existing systems, In the past I have brought some of my own and sometimes had a hard time against people who immediately though they would break game balance.
But we do have to worry about them, some small changes can really make a huge difference concerning gear power and char power.
It can appear that it’s not that impactful , but getting any of the normal affixes a 100% chance to be sealed at tier 5 is huge. It’s too much power to exalted equipment and we don’t need that In the moment. I don’t know if you lack endgame experience or not, but this suggestion is not viable. Actually I think the craft mechanics are top notch and very well balanced for the time being.
The devs are probably doing lots of balance in other areas, we need to wait 1.0 and see how everything will be handled.
@eliel77 @Llama8 I agree that allowing Seals to be 100% chance for normal affixes would be at least a mid-game powercreep on a per player basis. But lets not pretend like the thought of it will break the game.
Here’s an example for why I think that; If I suggested to implement a certain system that increases drop chances of items when playing solo. Then you’d probably be telling me that’s powercreep and therefor not good for the game. I assume you can see where I’m getting at here, right? I’ll say no more as you’re intelligent people.
@DJSamhein I agree that if mastery choice was at character selection then it wouldn’t be as much of an issue. However, that would be under the assumption you actually get access to the class at the start of the game rather than level 20+. But that’s simply not the case.
In the current case you’ve got to play to level 20, and then play more to unlock features of the mastery in order to properly have a better understanding if you like the mastery or not. If you made a bad choice but you like the base class, then sorry you’ve got to delete your character and start again, that’s just illogical game design. And there’s literally ZERO reason for it.
Additionally, if EHG really thought of masteries as “the own classes”, then why don’t the ladders reflect that? I mean they sort of do in that they show players mastery, but you can’t filter by mastery. If you want to see your position compared to every other spellblade, you’d have to wade through all of the runemasters. Out of the top 50 Mage players on the ladder, there’s 2 spellblades.
If they were truly treated as a separate class, then instead of 5 class ladders, there would be 13 (+2 on full release), right? Doesn’t seem to me like they are treated as separate classes.
I think it’s a bad choice to have it designed the way it is, especially when the game encourages build respecializations. It’s kind of like someone complimenting you while slapping you, it’s polarizing design. If you’re going to allow people to change builds, then go the full hog and allow it. Otherwise why not just lock every single choice? And I bet if passives were locked we’d be having the exact same argument.
We can agree to disagree here, but I still haven’t heard any compelling argument for why mastery is a locked choice.
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The thought of it wouldn’t “break the game”, but the implementation could if it was as you described. Plus I said it was power creep, not “breaking the game”.
Given how easy the game is, I’m surprised you’re minimising the power creep.
So basically adding CoF to SSF players who will alteady have chosen CoF? I know you’re being hypothetical, but the devs are adding this in 1.0 (I assume you’ve heard about the item factions?). Not sure if that makes it a good example or a bad example. Or both.
I agree, if the devs are of the opinion (which they are) that mastery = class, then why is it not chosen at character creation? I’m fine with some things being unchangeable, but I do understand when people say that they feel like they’ve made a mistake when they chose a mastery.
Ultimately it’s a design choice that some won’t be happy with.
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@Ember_Salis Cheer for the effort you put in this topic.
Sadly we have some white knighting going on atm. Same thing were on d4 forums. Look were it is now.
Just some players defending some point of views even if there were other options.
I don’t say what is good or wrong is just some suggestions as title describe it.
And i think that some one that put this much effort in to making the post is because you want the game to succeed.
Sadly the devs won’t notice this cause you know they busy fixing servers and balance the game in 1 week before release.
Take it easy mate and after all is just a game.
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If you selected mastery at character creation you’d already have the mastery skill and passive unlocked. Other than the right side of the tree, this is what makes a mastery special. The other skills in the mastery line don’t actually require being that mastery to use.
Because heaven forbid anyone have any disenting opinions.
You can, create a new character, get someone to give you a lift to the end of time, select the mastery. I do it all the time.
I’m wondering who would waste their runes on mid-game gear. Maybe one time for making twink gear, but that’s about it. After that? The whole thing is nothing more than just it going against the ‘nature’ of crafting. It wouldn’t be power creep, necessarily, since we can already seal affixes – just we’d have T5 sealed, instead of T2 and 3. Power creep would be minimal, and at max level, it would just be less frustration with the process.
Many of the runes and glyphs could use a rework, in how the are applied. IMHO, explicit/implicit value rerolls shouldn’t cost FP, and should be able to be applied in Legendary/Set items as well. Instead of costing FP, the glyphs themselves should be a crafted item – consuming some other resource – perhaps 100 random affix shards, or X+Y+Z other runes/glyphs. This would also help deal with the infinitely-growing nature of the crafting stash we have now.
Did you read the suggestion? He also suggested having multiple sealed affixes & guaranteed, that’s some power creep there for you. Even just 1 guaranteed t4 seal is some power creep (averaged over an entire gear set) given the low chance of getting a t4 seal currently.
Ah, I was just replying to the 100% seal chance. And I would image T4/T5 sealed affixes are already accounted for, given it’s possible ATM. So having it guaranteed shouldn’t be a huge issue. Anymore than have double T6 or single T7 or T6/T7 exalted gear doesn’t break the game…and is most likely accounted for in the player vs mob balancing.
I think the suggestion of 100% sealing is blown out of proportion because it’s assumed everyone will be running around with max T25 perfect gear 24/7. But, the rarity of Despir glyphs would balance that out. In fact, they could become moar rarererest to compensate for the 100% sealing. This isn’t rocket surgery, nor does it require the Blizzard Blunt Chainsledgehammersaw Of Balance ™ to accomplish.
Possible, but very unlikely, especially having one on each item. If, say, the average sealed affix is a t3 on all items (not sure how plausible that is, but details), then surely having a t4 or a t5 is going to be power creep by its very definition?
I want one of them. In fact, I ordered one online, they said it was coming soon™.
I acknowledged it would be minimal. But it’s like anything else in the game… it will be achieved/acquired eventually. I see streamers rocking multiple 3LP and at least 1 4LP item. The game hasn’t blown up yet, as a result. So I would imagine the same nothing-burger would occur around people having multiple T4/T5 sealed affixes (which wouldn’t even be possible on Unique/Legendary/Set slots.
I mean, I understand the fear of power creep, ala D3. But this isn’t introducing a new affix/system/tier to the game. It’s just removing the rng around a single thing that can already occur naturally – albeit fairly uncommonly (I have sealed 2 T4 affixes this week alone, and only used about 15 Despairs). Besides, it could be easily countered by increasing the rarity of Despair glyphs to compensate.
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I think you’re misunderstanding the point of the suggestion entirely. Multiple Seals yes, but you’re assuming every stat is equally valuable. The point was never to allow players to run around with a Sealed T5 HP & T5 %HP & T5 hybrid HP.
The point is to allow bad stats to be present as a seal but not use up an entire seal slot. I don’t understand how that point is being missed here.
No, I get that, but why would you want “bad” stats (& personally the only actively bad affix is stun avoidance). But IMO the principle of having an additional 1-3 (or whatever) stats (and somewhat higher tiers than you’d normally expect to seal), even if they’re less used ones is power creep. If the devs included it and rebalanced the mobs around the expectation/existence of it, that’d be fine. But without making the mobs harder it’s just making the game easier.
@Llama8 When I say bad stats, I mean less optimal stats. Not all stats are equal, which should be obvious, some stats are okay to seal, but ideally you’d seal stats more suited to clearing the content faster.
In addition, why would the devs need to rebalance the entire game any more/less than what ever their doing with the faction system? That’s a far bigger powercreep in comparison, and I tried alluding to that earlier but you seem to have forgotten about that in your reply.
And I feel like this powercreep argument is getting old really fast when the game isn’t even balanced in the first place.
I don’t really want to hear about that line of argument anymore, I get it, powercreep is something to be thought about, but to shut down any and all ideas because there’s this mystical idea of a delicate balance at stake is utter lunacy. Especially when the game is getting updates of more powerful classes/systems on release.
I don’t know how I can make myself anymore clear on this subject. If your argument is about powercreeping the game (aka ruining the balance), then I’m sorry to say, there is little to begin with. And in principal I agree with you, but in reality there’s not much balance to ruin. You have to have something working first before it can break.
Alright I’ll stop repeating myself now.
Not really, you’re getting the same gear faster, your proposal of more sealed affixes would give strictly better gear.
I’m not saying the game is balanced (whatever that is or should be) now, but making gear better would need the mobs to be more harderer than they are now or should be now.