It's your own fault for gamers leaving the game

[KiwitusImortalis]

@DJSamhein

Especially regarding this, because you can’t please everyone. If LE would change to make it so that you like the gear drops and feel that it’s in a “timely manner”, many other players wouldn’t like it and would leave.

Who are these many other players? When was the last time you’ve seen player numbers? Have you seen the intensity of these type of posts? They’re all over the forum. Majority have already bailed.

@DJSamhein

So yes, more players will leave when they understand that this game isn’t for them.
Much like many players left PoE when they realized that it wasn’t for them.
Much like many players left D4 when they realized that it wasn’t for them.

This is such bullshit statement I can’t even.
Majority of the players that came were already part of those 2 games. This is a niche genre. It’s not like it has millions and millions of players like other genres, and it failed to satisfy ITS TARGET AUDIENCE!

Just typical white knite bs. If this game hits all the nails for you that doesn’t mean it hits the majority of the players as well.

And all of you people that defend these type of practices and blatant ridiculous designs gaslight people into thinking its them that are the problem until the game dies with just you ~thousand of players remaining. It’s US that think wrong. It’s US that don’t understand anything. The game doesn’t have problems, it’s the players problems. You write like a spokeperson for EHG, and every complaint is met with “oh no no no, see, you’re wrong about this, the game was designed like this.” Well no shit sherlock, the design is bad! It’s not sustainable, and it only makes people mad.

@DJSamhein

Right now, LE’s gear progression is easier than PoE’s and harder than D4’s.

@DJSamhein

Progressing in a timely manner is a personal metric

You should take your own word here. If its personal metric don’t tell me how it’s quicker than PoE and slower than D4.

Honestly, your post is so bad it can be dismantled easily. I don’t have the f time to try to convince someone that is never willing to change their mind. Play the game, do what you want. Just like I’m not playing it.

There’s 1 undeniable fact. Players numbers are dwindling. You’re advocating for status quo, I’m advocating for a change. Guess which one makes more sense.

[Heavy]

@KiwitusImortalis

Who are these many other players? When was the last time you’ve seen player numbers? Have you seen the intensity of these type of posts? They’re all over the forum. Majority have already bailed.

The amount of people that will write feedback about things they don’t like about a game is much much higher than people going to the forum and saying “everything is fine as it is”.

People are much less incentiviced to give feedback about something when they don’t have something to criticize.

@KiwitusImortalis

Majority of the players that came were already part of those 2 games. This is a niche genre. It’s not like it has millions and millions of players like other genres, and it failed to satisfy ITS TARGET AUDIENCE!

And the majority of players are types of players playing all of these games still. many many players play all 3 of them or at least 2 and alternate between them.

And I would argue that LE did not fail to statisfy its target audience, because with everything that currently is criticized about the game, there always was and still is a lot of praise for LE.

There are a lot of players that still like this game.

I think the gigantic peak fo players with 250K+ leads people to believe that not because its back to 4-5K that the game is failing right now. But it isn’t. (Overall the game is still growing and it will only get better once there is more longjevity in terms of content and endgame)

The overwhelming hype that the game received might have been a bit too early, because its not quite ready yet for longterms playerbase to stick.

Excluding game breaking bugs and htings making the game unplayable for some people.

The most common pieces of feedback are usually regarding endgame variety and content, all of which is addressed on the roadmap already.
LE just still needs some time to flourish.

@KiwitusImortalis

Just typical white knite bs. If this game hits all the nails for you that doesn’t mean it hits the majority of the players as well.

What DJSamhein already mentioned in their previous posts.
The goal of a dev is not always to maximize the amount of people playing the game. They don’t want to statisfy the majority of players. They might want to make a game, they want to make and adjust certain thigns along the ways to make it better in some regards, but that doesn’t mean catering to the largest portion of the playerbase, if they would need to compromise on their design philosophy or vision.

@KiwitusImortalis

And all of you people that defend these type of practices and blatant ridiculous designs gaslight people into thinking its them that are the problem until the game dies with just you ~thousand of players remaining. It’s US that think wrong. It’s US that don’t understand anything. The game doesn’t have problems, it’s the players problems. You write like a spokeperson for EHG, and every complaint is met with “oh no no no, see, you’re wrong about this, the game was designed like this.” Well no shit sherlock, the design is bad! It’s not sustainable, and it only makes people mad.

You really like to throw the term gaslighting around alot and I still faield to see anybody gaslighting you here.

I don’t know what happened in the past, but I think you might not know what that erm actually means. You might want to look that up and make sure you are using that term right.

[DJSamhein]

@KiwitusImortalis

Majority of the players that came were already part of those 2 games.

Most players that like PoE don’t like D4 and vice versa. There will always be a few that will play both, but the vast majority will stick to one or the other simply because they’re totally opposite in who they target: D4 is clearly targetted to the casual crowd, so PoE players won’t like it for being too simple/easy, PoE is clearly targetted to the hardcore crowd, so D4 players won’t like it for being to complex/hard.

@KiwitusImortalis

it failed to satisfy ITS TARGET AUDIENCE!

No, it didn’t. EHG never set out to make the best ARPG, or the most popular or the one with the highest player count. They set out to make the ARPG they would like to play. And many players that feel like they do also joined in and are still around.
So it’s target audience is, for the most part, satisfied with the game.

Even in a niche genre you have niches. Which is why D3 players and PoE players were, for the vast majority, exclusive. If one liked one of them, they didn’t like the other.

@KiwitusImortalis

Just typical white knite bs. If this game hits all the nails for you that doesn’t mean it hits the majority of the players as well.

I know it doesn’t. That’s not the point. EHG doesn’t want to please the majority. That’s what D4 is for. And no ARPG (LE least of all) will ever be able to compete with D4 in the casual market. Because D4 is a very good game in what it set out to do. It just isn’t what EHG set out to do.

A game doesn’t have to please to the majority of players. PoE clearly doesn’t and it’s doing fine. LE just needs to find their own comfortable spot and stick to it. Which they did. It’s just not a spot you like. Which is fine. As I said, not everyone has to like LE, nor does it need to please everyone.

Like I mentioned before (in this thread? another one?) not every game needs to be like pop music: easy to listen to and pleasing to the majority. Some prefer to make something they enjoy instead, even if they sell less.
What you’re basically saying is something like “Foo Fighters (or any other non-pop band) are idiots. They could be pleasing the vast majority of fans and do pop music like Katy Perry instead.”

@KiwitusImortalis

And all of you people that defend these type of practices and blatant ridiculous designs gaslight people into thinking its them that are the problem until the game dies with just you ~thousand of players remaining.

Yes. It is. D2 has the same ridiculous designs and it’s done fine for years. PoE has the same designs and it’s done fine for years. Why aren’t you in their forums trying to change their game?
Or in FromSoftware forums trying to change their “atrocious designs”?

Again, games don’t have to cater to every type of player. And they don’t have to please the majority just for sales. Many devs don’t want to do that. They’d rather make a game they enjoy.

@KiwitusImortalis

Well no shit sherlock, the design is bad!

For you. Others like it fine.

@KiwitusImortalis

You should take your own word here. If its personal metric don’t tell me how it’s quicker than PoE and slower than D4.

Getting absolute BiS gear in D4 takes much (much much) less time in D4 than in LE. And getting absolute BiS gear in PoE takes much (much much) more time than in LE. This is not a personal metric. The personal metric is if you prefer D4, PoE or something in between.

@KiwitusImortalis

There’s 1 undeniable fact. Players numbers are dwindling. You’re advocating for status quo, I’m advocating for a change. Guess which one makes more sense.

Neither. Or both. It depends on who you ask. If you ask Blizzard, you make more sense. If you ask GGG, I do.
Because Blizzard just wants to sell as much as it can, which is why it targets the casuals. And GGG just wants to make the game they have always made from the start, which is why they target the hardcore players.
I’m pretty sure you could make PoE much easier to grind and create builds and their numbers would probably increase. But they don’t want that. Nor do their players.

It’s fine that you want easier loot. It’s also fine that EHG doesn’t.
I happen to like the way LE is setup in this regard. I also happened to hate the way D3 handled the loot. But you know what I did? I simply didn’t play it. I certainly didn’t try to change the game to please me instead.

[HorusKBZ]

@KiwitusImortalis

One is casual, as they marketed the game

And currently, one can casually do all content without amazing gear.

[Llama8]

@DJSamhein

If one liked one of them, they didn’t like the other

That’s not true, I liked both, for different reasons, obviously.

[DJSamhein]

@DJSamhein

There will always be a few that will play both, but the vast majority will stick to one or the other

That’s why I said:

@DJSamhein

There will always be a few that will play both, but the vast majority will stick to one or the other simply because they’re totally opposite in who they target

[BroncoCollider]

@KiwitusImortalis

More gaslighting.

“Gaslighting” is real term that has a real meaning - a malicious, psychologically damaging practice that occurs in abusive relationships. It is not a synonym for “someone disagreed with me on the internet”, and it is offensive and reprehensible that you keep trying to use it that way. You are not being abused, you are not a victim of anything, and you are not being persecuted. You are just a person who doesn’t like a video game that other people do like.

Have some more respect and decency than to marginalize people who actually suffer from gaslighting than to keep trying to use it as a thumbscrew when you’re losing an argument.

[Unava]

I don’t feel you are attacking me, on the contrary, I feel we have an exchange of views.

[WeAreViledNation]

Last epoch failed to satisfy alot of the arpg fans. I have 1.2K people agreeing with me on my video last epoch is fun until its not as a youtuber with 50 subs and as nonebody because people agree with me.

1.2K is already more then everyone on the forums combined. And they where all largly negative toward the game. A lot of them are hardcore arpg fans from grimdawn and titan quest. There is a reason player count is dropping, will it go up with new season? Yes. Will it go up to what it was? I do not think so. We would be lucky if 20K return for season 2.

My video was still during honeymoon phase of last epoch. If i remade it now it would get evem more likes

[BroncoCollider]

@WeAreViledNation

I have 1.2K people agreeing with me on my video last epoch is fun until its not

lol. There are more than three times that many people playing the game right now, during the lowest possible point in its content cycle. The number of likes you got on your crackpot video means squat.

Why you people who obviously don’t like the game, and aren’t going to like the game, keep sticking around here to make the same three silly arguments about why the game is allegedly objectively bad is beyond me. Move on already.

[WeAreViledNation]

I got few viewers as small youtubers do not get promoted by the algorithim. Fact i got 1.2K views with almost no videos on last epoch, meant it was being searched enough that i still got a trickle from it. The actual number is much higher. When a game looses 95% of players its a bad sign

[DJSamhein]

PoE had 187k peak players at league start. It’s the highest it ever had. Less than 2 months later it has 15k. I’m pretty sure that means you think it’s also dying. You should go make a thread on their forums about it. And make a video about it. Maybe it will get more likes.

[WeAreViledNation]

Poe is 10 years old is it not? From what i heard it drops like a stone after a few weeks. LE is a new game, people should not be burned out already. If you feel in a new game as you do in a 10 year old game, sorry to tell you the new game aint doing good.

[DJSamhein]

PoE (and any game that uses the seasonal model) has ALWAYS dropped like a stone after a month or two. It just drops more these days because there are more alternatives, namely D4 and LE. Back then it only had D3 for competition. It has nothing to do with burnout.

But on the other hand, the last leagues have been the ones with most players at peak, so I guess it’s far from dying.

As for LE, it simply doesn’t have enough endgame yet to keep people playing for longer. PoE also required (quite a few) leagues until it had enough content to increase player retention.

But it’s cool, you can keep making “LE is dead/dying” threads. I expect they’ll be looked at in much the same way all the constant “PoE is dead/dying” thread have been over the years.
I’m sure they’ll age well.

[Heavy]

@WeAreViledNation

And they where all largly negative toward the game.

Taking a sample out of a specific portion of players that were all on the same platform (in this case a specific youtube video) is meaningless as a comparison towards how the community as a whole thingks about the game.

Youtube Videos and other platforms mostly attract a subportion of a community, often with very similar mindsets.
Especially on youtube videos with clickbait-seq titles.
I would argue that with that video title mostly people that played the game and are not statisfied anymore click that video, yet alone comment on it. The amount of people not even watching or commenting, that are still happy with LE is unknown, but very likely much higher.

There is a fun channel called Kurzgesagt (In a nutshell) on Youtube that is using this exact phenomenon to its advantage and attracting certain types of people with specific titles to try targeting it a bit more towards the people that should watch it.

Example for two of their videos (one from the german channel and one from the english one):

• 3 Reasons, why cannabis shoudl stay banned (this is from their german channel before cannabis was legal in germany)
• Smoking is awesome

Both of these videos are basically explaining the exact opposite of what the title suggests, but without being biased too much and more on a factual/scientific basis.

The first one explains why drugs like that should be allowed.
And the second one explains why smoking is actually really bad and what it exactly does to your body.

There are countless of people that expected a totally different video when clicking it, especially people that allready have an “informed opinion” about certai nsubjects. These most often would not even click a video with opposing arguments.

Now to get back on topic.
For feedback related subjects taking one platform (like YouTube, Reddit, Game Forum etc.) and making a conclusion about what the majority of the playerbase/communtiy thinks about the game is just skewing the big picture.

Both in the positive and negative, this can happen. Here in the forum of a game, where people that are more attached to the game it can happen with positive stuff about the game.
While on other more distant platforms it often is more negative.

This whole effect is called echo chamber, where people only encounter opinions or aguments that are skewed towards their view of a certain subject.

[yawan]

I think LE is a phenomenal game. The skill design is revolutionary, and the game plays and looks surprisingly smooth. But that’s only when taking into account its budget and price, and EHG’s size and experience. Overall, however, the game is just meh.

I gotta agree with @WeAreViledNation here. The massive decline in players and almost 100% decline in streaming and yt content coverage is not a natural thing that happens to all arpgs. It’s because LE at this moment is not built to retain large levels of interest.

LE endgame is in its infancy. Game mechanics, though they feel just right at first, are littered with blatant design errors. Balance does not exist, devs outright refuse to do that hiding behind player surveys (ofc 95% ppl will say no to nerfs, come on). Gameplay loop is unexciting and tiresome because of slow stability/corruption gains and annoying have-tos like the Julra dungeon. Trading UI would get an F in a freshman UI Design course. Economy is dead because of exploits and no meaningful gold sinks. And you can go on forever. For every great thing about LE, there are a hundred things that are just blatantly wrong.

And this is why players diminish. LE is just not that good overall - hopefully- yet. I try to jump in once in a while but there’s really nothing to keep me hooked. I got 3-4 chars that are maxed for what is reasonably attainable but far from really maxed because any meaningful upgrades just don’t exist (meaning cost 500M+ or drop once a year). Thinking about making another alt fills me with dread when I imagine repeating all the mindless grind to get to corruption levels where builds actually matter.

I’ll check patch notes for the next season but if I don’t see all the above issues fixed, I won’t even bother coming back. And I don’t think many people will.

[KiwitusImortalis]

@Heavy

Taking a sample out of a specific portion of players that were all on the same platform (in this case a specific youtube video) is meaningless as a comparison towards how the community as a whole thingks about the game.

Why are people unable to see the irony… What is your sample and the other people defending this game? What’s their sample? What’s their methodology for making outlandish claims?

[DJSamhein]

Even by that metric, no one is lying or manipulating you. I was saying there are people that like this game (which is a true fact), that not every game needs to please every player (which is a fact), that not every game simply wants to cater to as many players as possible (which is a fact), that if you change the line on drops to please you others will leave (which is a fact).

You just don’t like that not everyone agrees with you and the game doesn’t cater to your needs.

[Llama8]

@WeAreViledNation

LE is a new game, people should not be burned out already.

Depends on what you mean by new, personally I’ve been playing it for several years. And yes, any seasonal content game has peaks & troughs. If you look at the shape of PoE’s numbers it looks similar though because it has more stuff (13 years more stuff) it drops off slower than LE has.

@yawan

It’s because LE at this moment is not built to retain large levels of interest.

Exactly. This should be fairly obvious to everyone.

[KiwitusImortalis]

Telling someone is wrong over and over again with no real argument aside from “that’s how it was designed” when the person is saying the design is bad, and telling them “no, it’s how its supposed to be, it’s you that’s not suited for this game” is literally manipulation. You are not privy to my own feelings. You don’t know if the game is suited to me or not. I actually like it. What I don’t like is the amount of time I need to spend to make any meaningful or significant progress when compared to PoE which is the mother of all grind games. But now LE takes that title.
You keep going on about how they’re not here to “please me” or they’re not here to do this or that. How the f do you know what they’re here for? Are you their spokes person? It’s incredibly disingenuous. There is literally no merit to talk to you about anything. You write a lot but you don’t say anything significant.