Interesting decline of players

Some people really overthink things. It basically comes down to “is it fun”? People play if it’s fun and stop when it’s no longer fun. No amount of arguing is going to change how companies approach development. Do you think Blizzard magically decided to overhaul D4 because of complaints? They decided on their current approach because they saw a massive decline that would/is hurting their bottom line.

I’m pretty sure EHG is going to or has been focusing on fixing the major pain points this game currently has. I have a feeling arena will be overhauled/replaced with a different system if their data shows little to no interest from players in engaging the arena system. I suspect they have data on when people stop playing such as a particular act, monolith, character, etc. That will inform their decision on what to focus on. It’s likely they will iterate on the LP system to make it more robust if they have data that shows this is a pain point for players.

It’s fine for people to share their experiences on what sucks because that’s still data. But honestly, we’re all in over our heads on offering specific solutions or diagnosis on what’s wrong when we are speaking from experience and not from data. I’m hazarding a guess that there’s a few developers who got a nice chuckle from some of our statements because they have data that flies in the face of what we’re saying.

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If you could have up to 4 prefixes/suffixes, yes. Plus many of those are slot-specific & some are class-specific. So, sadly, your back of a fag packet maths is wrong. How wrong I have no idea as I can’t be arsed to do it per slot per class.

You mean passives? 'Cause that’s wrong too. The classes all have 15, most masteries have a bit over 30, apart from the Primalist ones that have 33, 32 & 31 so that’s close enough.

I enjoyed your thoughts. They were well put.

-I don’t mind people giving some specificity to their gripes/thoughts because this SEEMS to be a game where they actually listen. At least, I hope so? You’re right, they likely consider the data. I do hope they listen to slightly more though as it’s usually the “spirit” of a game that captures or looses my interest.

For context, I stepped away from the game because after 350 hours, I never once managed to move the affix of an item over to a legendary that I desired. I decided after non-stop farming the same items over and over again just to get the same null results, I needed to step away for my sanity and play other things. That’s just me though and I don’t hate them, etc over it. I’ll certainly come back and try again once in a while in the future.

I feel that the bones of the game are good.

This is not true. A few years ago one of the devs said that distribution was about 50/50 or 60/40, favoring steam. One can expect that trend to have continued and that most PoE players use steam these days.

True, but I wasn’t actually aiming for accuracy. I was probably off by a few factors, but the point remains that the number of combinations for everything in the game remains intractable. Which was my only point.

not really from what i saw. they just did what they assumed the community wanted.
which is why it didnt work.

affixes, skills and classes are different.
the affixes depend on skills from classes to actually work properly.

the balance people have been asking for is mostly skills and/or masteries, most of them being fairly specific on what needs to be done ‘e.g. small increase/reduction to the numbers already there’.

i agree, but i will elaborate on some of the balance issues since you brought up a lot of things not really in the direction of what i mean by balance.

its just not reasonable when devs make something like converting HP to ward regen + retention + other ward generators, any sort of testing on this and you will clearly see its broken, which they knew before launch but didnt do anything about it.

a “reasonable balance” i would have expected would be just flat conversion,
e.g. 20% HP converts to ward based on amount converted (1k hp converts to 800 hp 200 ward).

a “reasonable balance” i would have expected would be 0 cooldowns and lower mana costs on melee skills.
instead, you have to build for these, which uses stat slots that could be used for more damage or defence.
so, yes, melee rogue has more defensive passives, but they are negated by the fact you have higher mana costs and cooldowns.
basically, LE has systems that are working against each other and i can see it.

just look at the rogue bladedancer mana costs and cooldowns, its as if that mastery is some sort of melee mage, even the specialization skill has a 0.7 cooldown on melee when both other masteries have 0 cooldown on their ranged skills.

how many builds actively use ‘shadow cascade’, none, why, because it can be triggered by other skills (mainly shift) and it uses too much mana to consistently use.

multishot can hit pretty much the entire screen and it has half the mana cost of shadow cascade which doesnt hit the entire screen and you have to be right next to the enemy to use it properly.

Hail of Arrows ‘is not a hit’ skill, majority of passives and affixes are ‘on hit’, which means this already has extremely limited builds and because of that, will always be behind compared to any other build.
it has extremely high mana cost and the damage doesnt even come close to multishot without using multiple other skills to buff the damage from the node ‘Skystrike’, and thats because that node has a 1 off ‘hit’ trigger.

Dark quiver, this skill… just wow… i cant even begin to believe that this idea would be accepted in this kind of game.
i have never seen a game that you have to first wait and then run around collecting your buff and its only a 1 off, which means you have to keep collecting after each attack.
this should have been at least a 5 second buff after each collection or x uses without collection.

imagine if they did the collection with all other skills ‘e.g. use a skill and then wait for it to drop only after you pick it up, then it activates’.
just thinking about it in that way, will help anyone understand how inconvenient it is, even worse when you are surrounded with enemies that have aoe skills.

these are just some of balance issues with skills that are as clear as day.
once you get 1 system stable, then you work on the next.

nobody is saying balance the game over night or balance everything all at once, but when you can see issues that are clear as day in a game that literally just launched, thats something else, then you see nothing changing for multiple months and devs hiding behind ‘no balance mid-cycle’ excuse.

if you try put an entire pizza in your mouth all at once, of course it wont fit, but if you eat it 1 bite at a time, you will finish it, but when it takes 3-4 months for each bite, thats a different story.

a big part is not about the unforeseen combinations, its the ones that you can outright see in front of you, and anyone that wants to say certain issues are unforeseen combinations, they are just looking for a justifiable excuse.

when i started as rogue, i didnt even know what ward was or even how it worked and thought it was just like a shield for mages but it was weaker than hp because they dont have armor, so i ignored it and all items that gave it, then i started dying a little more often than i expected.

so, i started looking for where i could increase survivability, then i had a look at ward and found out that all defensive stats except endurance/threshold applied to it as well is it not having a cap, and i thought, they cant be serious.

i had a set ring that gives ward on hitting a shocked enemy and 1-handed swords that give ward on hit, all of a sudden my 1k hp went to 1k hp and 2k+ ward as long as im hitting enemies, i can basically have over 5k hp without investing anything into hp stats because they are almost redundant and take up suffix space.

started a new character equipped those swords and rings with something that shocked on hit, then i walked up to Lagon and face tanked him, then through everything 100-200-300-400+ corruption no problem, hit enemy and basically get endless hp, more attack speed = more hp.

as you can see from above, this is a very very easy to see issue.
the worst part is that they knew about it and didnt do anything like put a cap while they work on balancing it.

My best friend worded what I was trying to say yesterday perfectly and said I can plagiarize it so here we go.


Regarding the LP system in LE, there are multiple layers of failure which makes the process a downer. Even if you eventually get the item and slam that you want, the psychological impact is that you’re mildly surprised it actually worked rather than a genuine excitement from finding the item.

It’s the same reason you don’t get the exaltation from crafting in games in general because it feels like a slog of a process in which you have to find a bunch of junk and assemble it rather than a surprising reward that happened to occur while playing the game.

In short, D2 streamlines everything to keep the game focused on gameplay and reward rather than side tracking you with complicated RNG formulas and even more RNG crafting.


League of Legends. World of Warcraft. StarCraft. Counter Strike. These games and others had increased player counts 3 months after they were released, and still have a remaining playerbase today.

Baldur’s Gate is a campaign playthough. I played that game and loved it too. I played for about 2 months, played it through normal, played it through tactician, played mage, melee, ranged, tank, “on Hit” builds. It was fun, you play it and then the game ends, at which point the only thing to do is start from the beginning again. After doing that 3 times, there was nothing left to do. There was no endgame, and there wasn’t intended to be either. This is not a campaign play-though type game, not for most.

Back in the day, Battleship 2142 came out, and you’d board titan ships after destroying their shields, and then tried to blow up the titan by destroying it’s power core. That was the funnest Battlefield game in it’s long history to date. I wish they’d bring that element back to their game. Today, Battleship Series is 1/10 the fun as their game of 2142. I wish they’d bring it back. Equal Runes, Open Trading, and Runewords were what made D2 so fun for me, and I wish they’d bring it back. And while some many not want D2 system back, I’d say that 90% of people would want something different, whether it be less buggy, or better rewards, or funner, or whatever. That they left not because they finished the campaign, but because there was no reason to keep playing. Or maybe that’s exactly it, they left after they finished the campaign, because there was no reason to keep playing considering how the current system works.

90% of players no longer play this game, so I believe they agree, this game is either too buggy or not fun to play past a few weeks. I rated the game positively as well. I also keep playing. This game is currently the best option out there, but it isn’t nearly as fun or addictive as D2. If you play D2 for 10 hours, then play this game for 10 hours, they are very similar. The ways in which they are different, mostly lie in the endgame and QOL changes. This game has many QOL changes, such as the ability to respec, and much more forgiving for deaths. The endgame itemization and trade options, D2 had better. Time till builds were viable, LE has better. D2 had better difficulty. D2 has less bugs.

I’m not saying this game is trash. I’m saying this game is good, however I’m suggesting and encouraging the company to change direction of the loot, trade, and currency of the game, so it’s matches or surpasses D2’s system. Other people are suggesting other changes as well. No need to set the bar low and then content with it. 77% of positive reviews is nothing to boast about, as if it were proof that the game is in a good state. Most people on forums are suggesting improvements or explaining frustrating issues. The current playerbase are probably the ones posting. They are playing the game, and saying what they like or don’t like about it, and suggesting Devs change it for them. It’s a good system, devs get feedback, players hope they listen, and over time, a relationship develops between the players and the company. Some companies ignore players, others listen to them. Companies that ignore players month after month, tend to find they have less and less players.

I want to be playing this game a year from now. For now I play it until something better comes a long, because it is good, but it is not great. I want great, and it is only a matter of time. Maybe this game will rise to greatness in some future patch. As of now, I’m being patient and waiting it out, hoping for the future.

I personally hated D2 trading. It was filled with scammers and toxic people. And lots and lots of RMT. It wasn’t as bad as PoE, but it was still pretty bad.

Honestly, if LE didn’t have trading at all, I’d be happy, but players want trade, so the devs tried to come up with a system to eliminate scammers, price fixers, snipers, etc. In this, they succeeded, imo.

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Haha, yeah, I’m so glad they allow trading at all, but it’s so limited. I was CoF on my first character, and I found it a little annoying that I’d have to choose between doing activites I don’t want to do like arena or Tier 4 dungeon, or I could limit them, but get 300% less rewards. So on my next character I went MG. That was my saving grace for LE, for now instead of random rng on top of random rng, I could just find exactly what I was looking for, and buy it, but it would could 2 billion gold, and I only had 80,000 gold. So now every item that drops has a chance to be valuable, which I could exchange for gold, and eventually have enough gold to buy the item I want. But it sucks, because I can’t even tell it to look for a specific range, only of random stats. So I have to flip though 50+ pages and read every single item posted, instead of being able to say “Let me see all Items with +6 to crit.” Currently it can only show “all items with + to crit” Not not “6+”. Thus I don’t even bother with trying to buy anything, I’m just selling. Thus I’m just increasing wealth. I came to the forums bored with the game as CoF, but now MG saved it, so there is an activity I enjoy doing. It’s just so limited. I stay due to chance of improvement and changes in future. I expect changes even, for there is no way this limited system will last, or if it does, a better game will come along that I enjoy more.

Can you prove it? Give any kind of charts where objective data is tracked regarding their player base, and which shows what you’re indicating is true, rather than baseless conjecture. I played 2 of those 4, and WoW especially while their total subscribers increased over time, there is zero chance that 3 months in they had higher concurrent player counts than they did at launch, which is what info from sites like Steam Charts is tracking. Starcraft had legs for days but a) most of the people I knew were using peer based matchmaking and LAN and not BNet (at least not consistently) and b) it doesn’t change that easily half of my friends played the campaign, played a match or two of online, and called it then, rather than continuing to play 3 months on.

As to the rest of it, I’m certainly not discouraging people from sharing their feedback with the developers. Personally I think the LP system is a mistake and the multiple layers of failure with it is a system which inherently increases frustration and drives people away, and that they should redesign it (and their unique items in general overall) such that people can consistently work towards progress and improvements rather than it being RNG fiesta on RNG fiesta and a source of ill will.

But also, I’ve put in between 20 and 40 hours over the last month (it’s a lot for me I’ve got a family and limited time especially for gaming), and have gotten 1 of each base class to 60+ (my sentinel is still 45), with absolutely zero interaction thus far with LP practically speaking rather than conceptually speaking. So I know that while I agree conceptually it’s a bad system based on what I’ve heard, I’m reserving my opinions on that until I actually interact with it myself.

I’m just saying, I am more “in the loop” than most folks who play the game. Most are not on the forums, they don’t even know what LP means or does, they’re just playing the game. So while it’s easy for those who have invested hundreds of hours into the game to be frustrated with end game systems or LP or things like that, you’ve got to keep perspective in mind, that such things are not what’s actually driving player loss as most players haven’t even seen or interacted with such things. What actually drives player loss is folks not seeing a reason to stick around after blowing up enemies for 20-40 hours. The campaign being too easy is a bigger problem for player retention than having to run a dungeon just to brick a legendary, no matter how much the latter may suck, since the former affects everyone who plays the game and the latter just affects the 10% or less who actually make it that far.

be careful when you say any game.
Dota 2 pretty much made steam what it is today.
432k around launch 2013 which only increased over time, then 1.3 million peak 8 years ago and 735k players right now.
https://steamdb.info/app/570/charts/#max

the funny thing is, the entire game is rinse and repeat roughly every 20-60 minutes.
absolutely nothing is kept between matches and it has the most toxic community i have ever seen.

Here is another, Warframe
https://steamdb.info/app/230410/charts/#max
thats only on steam, they support multiple platforms, the playerbase only really increases.

Warframe is literally a grinding game with the same silly 0.000x% chance for something to drop.
but people grind away and eventually get it and then they grind extra to sell.
the reason they are happy grinding is because its engaging.

Some of you stating league and dota2 are being disingenuous. Those games are inherently very different because they are pvp games that, while is essentially the same gameplay loop, have different game play experience match by match because the major gameplay loop is determined by player to player interaction. You can main one character/champion, play 1,000 games, and essentially have 900 different game experiences. They are competitive and extremely skill based. It’s like comparing every single player RPG games with counter strike and strike down a single player game as a failure because it can’t match counter strike’s retention numbers.

Now you’re being difficult just for the sake of being difficult . Of course it’s a ‘brick’, if the (ultra)rare LP unique, combined with the (ultra)rare exalted item you got, didn’t get you the desired outcome. Yes, that’s a brick. It’s a fail. It’s the opposite of feeling good about something…in a game…that is supposed to be about enjoyment.

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It’s not about being difficult, it’s just what the words means. Bricking an item means it becomes unusable or worse than it was. This is what happens regularly in PoE. Not so in LE. You didn’t get the affix you wanted, but if you make another character you now have a better unique to use as your starting point, so it’s not wasted.

By your definition, when you go kill a boss and don’t get the blessing you want, you bricked the monolith.

quick question.
can you craft multiple times on a unique item?

if you cant craft multiple times, then by definition, its worse than it was when it had 1-2-3 open LP slots.

anything that can be modified without the desired outcome and lose the opportunity to reroll on the same item, it becomes a brick.

if monoliths had restrictions like the LP system where you only get 1 forced random roll and not able to change it, then yes.

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Actually no. You see, LE could incorporate PVP into the game, the way D2 did. And each time you went into a PVP match, you’d have a different experience. Since LE doesn’t have PVP, perhaps that is something they should consider adding, so that there is a reason to get better gear, and so people that want a PVP instead of a PVE experience, could get it. Have it a 5v5 arena experience. They sky is the limit.

But to get back to the point, video games that increase player base and player interest in it over time, would be considered successful instead of video games that lose player base and player interest over time. There is always a half-life of video games. If the half-life of an ARPG video game is 3 weeks, there is room for improvement, since it’s supposed to have an “end game”. If End game means there is something to do over time. If there isn’t anything that keeps players motivated in playing over time, than it’s a failed end game.

LoL and Dota are a different type of game entirely, but the game itself increased in popularity after release, due to how fun it was. I argue, that ARPGs could be as fun. When D3 released, so many people wanted to play it that they crashed the servers. So many people wanted to play, because so many people enjoyed D2. It was worse than D2, and received so much negative feedback, that the devs changed direction entirely, and listened to player feedback, and a few years later, after completely changing it, it was considered a fun game in it’s own right.

LE could and should do the same. Listen to player feedback and change the game from what it is now, to something greater. All game companies should do that. Here 2 years after D4 release, only now are devs starting to change the loot system into something the players have been asking for. For me it is too little too late. D4 still refuses to offer a loot filter. LE hasn’t been out for even 3 months, yet it’s better than D4 on release, on perhaps it’ll even be better in it’s first or second patch, perhaps because they listen to player feedback.

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Make first impression, volatile reversal, do it again.

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lol, awesome.

But that’s not the current reality. ARPG players, for the most part, are not major PVP players. And pvp game design is by nature different than pve game design. There’s an inherent focus on making sure balance is there. For balance, you need to cut down on variables as much as possible. Anyone who played D2 back in the day knows no one gave two cents about pvp because it was broken as hell. All we did was join a lobby and screw around with friends. If you try to do well on both, you’ll get neither because what makes a pve game tick doesn’t necessarily make a pvp game tick, and vice versa. For example, pvp players value an equal playing field. Pve players do not. Imagine having a match as a player with a gear score of 2 going against a player with a gear score of 10. That’s a foregone conclusion because of a gear discrepancy. Pvp players will mock that to no end.

Fun and longevity are not synonymous. I’m sorry, but you’re assuming as such. What makes a pvp game last is different from what makes a pve game last. Even a standard MMORPG has ebbs and flows depending on content release. Games like league operate entirely different. Developers don’t depend on champion releases to retain/bring back players. They don’t depend on constant environment changes. They rely on balance changes that shakes up the meta, shakes up what is the most effective tactic available to win.

But in D2 you had to set yourself as hostile (fine) then meet other players in the world which wouldn’t really work in LE since the only happens if you’re partied & then you wouldn’t be able to attack each other.

Unless there was a friendly fire option. :smiling_imp:

D4 doesn’t have complex enough loot to need a loot filter, it’s definitely at the shallow end of the (gene)pool in that regard.