Hey everyone! So one thing I think Last Epoch generally does very well is letting the player learn things naturally just through playing the game. The one exception to this is how damage is calculated, specifically increased damage vs more damage. “Increased” and “more” basically mean the same thing as words, yet they work very differently in the game.
In the game, increased damage functions as a “initial” damage multiplier, and more damage functions as a “final” damage multiplier.
What this means is that if you have 600% increased damage, and you equip an item that does 100% increased damage, then you are now doing 700% increased damage. However, if you equip an item that does 100% MORE damage, then you are now doing 1200% damage.
It’s a massive difference, and it’s pretty important to understand this in order to make good builds, but I never would have known this difference if I didn’t watch a YouTube video.
I think that the game needs to do a better job explaining this.
Personally this was very easy to understand, especially because next to anything that states “more” damage, it tells you in parentheticals that it is multiplicative with other modifiers. Sure, that only implies that other non-more modifiers are not multiplicative, but there was no reason to assume that otherwise. A little bit of intuitive leaping gets us there.
Could it be made even more obvious? Sure, and it would be nice, especially for new players to the genre. So I don’t discredit the idea, but I wouldn’t say it’s not apparent.
If I had played another game with two separate multiplicative modifiers, I probably would have gotten it right away. But I’ll be honest, I thought more and increased damage meant the same thing until I watched that video lol. I mean, they are both multiplicative.
I can certainly see how it’d be confusing, another reason I don’t entirely discredit making it easier to understand on EHG’s side/making it more apparent in game.
Personally, I think every parenthetical in the tooltips should have big, flashing neon arrows pointing at them, and ship with a complimentary 5th grade math textbook.
No. Increased is an additive modifier and more is a multiplicative modifier (as the in-game game gyidesays), due to the commutation principle there are no “initial” or “final” modifiers as far as the maths goes.
If you’ve misunderstood it to this extent then yes, I guess the maths does need to be explained more/better. Have you tried the in-game game guide? IMO, D4 has a lot to answer for in this regard due to it using the same term for both additive and multiplicative modifiers.
I can tell you one thing… If I read this thread first before playing the game I would refund it right away . So much stuff to google and translate with even more stuff that pops up I need to google as well .
If htey call it additive damage and more dmg everything would be fine for me from the getgo. I needed some hours to facepalm and call me stupid untill I got it. On top of it you can find the explentation in the ingame guide now iirc.
I actually read the guide after seeing this, and it’s explanation is great. The problem however is that I, and probably most players, would never just proactively decide to read a game manual. Users are infamous for never reading documentation, and I don’t see why users of LE would be any different.
What would be helpful is if phrases like “More damage” and “Increased damage” were clickable “wiki” links that would open the relevant game guide page whenever a user clicks on them.
I… Didn’t know there was a guide either. I just figured incs weren’t multiplicative since mores were always said to be, so. Me figureds it outs all by my selfs! But now I feel dumb for not knowing there was a whole thing for it, lol.
If a player stranded in the desert isn’t willing to drink the water they’re being pointed at, that’s on them. IMO, EHG has already done everything they can be reasonably be asked and expected to do to make relevant information about terms clear and easily available within the game. They’ve gone way above and beyond what any other game that I’ve ever played does in that regard. Some people having no curiosity or being too lazy to look stuff up when they want to understand something better isn’t a problem that they need to solve.
They can’t be. These terms appear in tooltips, which will fall off if you move your mouse away from the element (skill/passive node, item, etc) that the tooltip is for. That’s why they include “Multiplicative with other multipliers” following all usage of “More”.
At the end of the day, it would be nice if the DPS reflected on the tooltip, or if the sheet stats could reflect individual skills…modified by gear and selected passive/nodes. But, until then, guess we just need to keep calculator open while playing… :\
Flat damage is additive 'cause it’s added together, % increased is added together to a total figure then used to multiply the flat figure, % more is called multiplicative because each instance of it is used to multiply everything else.
Base + (total flat damage x added damage effectiveness) x (sum of all relevant % increased damage modifiers) x (% more 1) x (% more 2) x (% more 3) etc…
It works like this, imagine you have the gear or abilities with following modifiers equipped and you are doing a base weapon attack:
Weapon base damage: 10
Added damage from item: 5
Increased damage from item: 30%
Increased damage from other item 50%
More damage from skill: 10%
More damage from other skill: 5%
First, your flat number damage is added together:
10 + 5 = 15
Next, all of your increased damage percentages are summed:
30%+50% = 80%
Next, you multiply your flat damage number by the increased damage:
15 * 1.8 = 27
Finally, you multiply that number by each more damage modifier SEPARATELY:
It’s not. The 5 & 10 are multiplied by the skill’s added damage effectiveness (which can be anything from ~25% up to ~600%). The skill’s base damage is the only flat damage that isn’t affected by added damage effectiveness.
If this is accurate, thank you. I always have a tough time… figuring increased vs more in my head. I’m usually like 50dmg x 1.5 increased is different from 50dmg x 1.5 more, how?
If a player stranded in the desert isn’t willing to drink the water they’re being pointed at, that’s on them. IMO, EHG has already done everything they can be reasonably be asked and expected to do to make relevant information about terms clear and easily available within the game. They’ve gone way above and beyond what any other game that I’ve ever played does in that regard. Some people having no curiosity or being too lazy to look stuff up when they want to understand something better isn’t a problem that they need to solve.
This is a bad mindset to have when you want a game to do well. I really like LE and it’s why I’m giving feedback. There are definitely ways that EHG can make this information more apparent to players than just expecting them to click on game guide and search for damage calculation.
They can’t be. These terms appear in tooltips, which will fall off if you move your mouse away from the element (skill/passive node, item, etc) that the tooltip is for. That’s why they include “Multiplicative with other multipliers” following all usage of “More”.
Sure they can be, they would just have to alter the UI functionality so that if you hold ALT, the tooltip will not disappear, plenty of other games do this. And doing this would allow them to leverage their game guide much more by linking relevant text from tooltips to the game guide. Not just this, but anything.
. So much stuff to google and translate with even more stuff that pops up I need to google as well