Increased vs More damage needs to be more intuitive to understand

Yeah it’s definitely hard to figure out. I think what I wrote is right, but if you open the game guide and search for “damage,” the explanation EHG gives there is pretty good. I just wish they did a better job of directing the player to that page, or telling us explicitly where our damage is coming from when we look at our skills.

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Yes that’s right, “more damage” is always multiplied at the end, when everything else is calculated, and each instance of more damage is multiplied separately.

To expand on this, and why it’s different,
100 damage + 50% increased + 100% increased gives you a total of 250 damage.
100 damage + 50% increased + 100% more gives you a total of 300 damage.

Edit: Because all instances of Increased add together, increases fall off after getting so much of them, diminishing returns. More modifiers do not suffer this issue, if it’s a 35% modifier, it’s always 35% more damage. Where as 35% increased ontop of 1000% increased is piss in the ocean.

No, it isn’t. It’s called triage, and it’s the only way you actually ship anything in software development.

Anyone who has ever tried to get The Masses to read things will tell you that it is an unsolvable problem. There will always be people who are not willing to search for answers or read or even think about a question they have before asking it. It doesn’t matter how many flashing signs, tooltips, clickable links, walking ants, Confluence documents, guides, FAQs, or Clippys you create. They cannot be forced to use them. It is not reasonable to spend time developing solutions to the problem of people being lazy about reading and researching when the information they need is already very clear and readily available.

Holding Alt already has a function for tooltips in the UI, as does holding Ctrl and Ctrl+Alt. Should it be holding Shift? That’s used for right clicking items to move or sell them, that doesn’t work either. Ctrl+Shift or Ctrl+Alt+Shift? What mangled monkey’s paw would you like to contort your hand into to lock down a tooltip so that you can click a link to an article in the Game Guide that you could already have accessed and searched just by pressing G?

Where is the fact of that hotkey’s existence going to be shown to the player? Obviously it can’t only be in the Game Guide. It can’t be in the loading screen tips, they’re too far removed from where the hotkey would be used and anyway you definitely don’t read those because you didn’t know about the Game Guide. You also already told us by posting this thread that you don’t read tooltips fully, so it’s not going to solve the problem to bloat it on to the bottom where the other hotkeys are either, which also runs the risk of not being seen at all if the tooltip gets so large it has to start scrolling itself, which already happens now.

Is the next step in this rabbit hole going to be that the word “multiplicative” is not clear enough and a video game needs to explain math terms to people who want to deep dive into their damage multipliers but aren’t willing to do any research? Are you tired of playing this fool’s game yet?

You could have found everything you needed to know but you chose not to. That is not a problem that lies with the game but with you.

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Well this is part of game design.

A lot of games dont tell you exact formulas or even have them available from an official source.

You know generally that building damage gives you damage… so you do that, etc.

Players who wish to understand deep mechanics are to search them out. Arpgs just happen to have more players interested in deep dives, but the devs cant really just text dump these things or even exactly text dump the guide. it hurts immersion, can lead to it being too hand holdy, or many other things.

Its much less important for players to have direct formulas, and more important for them to have general understandings. its kinda hard to not understand “damage” stats as damage. how they scale/interact isnt all that important for the vast majority of players. For the ones it is, they will google it, be sent to either the ingame guide, or a website that has the information they need.

if the game had blinking pop ups telling you to read about the damage formula that would turn off probably more people. And possibly even lead to confusion.

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How about Ctrl, Alt, Shift and Delete?

No, because they won’t understand the maths.

The game brings this fact up multiple times, and almost every time “more” is used it is followed by a parenthetical clarifying it. It’s in the guides, it’s in the text, it’s in the help menu, it’s in the skill descriptions, it’s in the item descriptions. It literally couldn’t be more clear than it already is, the only thing they could do is muddy up descriptions even more by laboriously slapping an entire definition in reminder text on every single instance.

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Holding Alt already has a function for tooltips in the UI, as does holding Ctrl and Ctrl+Alt. Should it be holding Shift? That’s used for right clicking items to move or sell them, that doesn’t work either. Ctrl+Shift or Ctrl+Alt+Shift? What mangled monkey’s paw would you like to contort your hand into to lock down a tooltip so that you can click a link to an article in the Game Guide that you could already have accessed and searched just by pressing G?

How about holding ALT displays more information AND pins the dialog in place until you release it :exploding_head:? I mean, players already press ALT to get more information about an ability, it isn’t a stretch to try to hover over things inside of the dialog to seek even more information, I already tried this just intuitively.

You could have found everything you needed to know but you chose not to. That is not a problem that lies with the game but with you.

No…I did find what I needed. I even explained how it works in my OP and further explained it to help another player (who didn’t know how the calculation works because it’s not obvious) in a comment of this post. The point is that I’m providing feedback so that EHG can make this easier to understand for other players, because I didn’t feel that the in-game explanations were sufficient, and the game didn’t do a good enough job at directing me to the guide where a good in-game explanation was.

Now whether EHG thinks it’s worth their time to address this or not, that’s up to them. It’s honestly a minor issue, and I could totally see them deciding to just let it be and that’s fine.

Is the next step in this rabbit hole going to be that the word “multiplicative” is not clear enough and a video game needs to explain math terms to people who want to deep dive into their damage multipliers but aren’t willing to do any research? Are you tired of playing this fool’s game yet?

Okay let me ask you, what kind of modifier is 50% increased damage? Is it an added damage modifier? An exponential modifier? Does it use logarithms? Do you have to calculate the integral?

IT’S ALSO A MULTIPLICATIVE MODIFIER, THAT’S WHY IT’S CONFUSING.

The problem is that 50% increased damage IS ALSO multiplicative with other modifiers, just not ALL modifiers. It is multiplicative with the damage you get from your weapon, and “added damage” modifiers. So it’s perfectly reasonable for someone to see 16% more damage, multiplicative with other modifiers, and think this is basically the same as 16% increased damage, which is also multiplicative as implied by the “%” sign.

Ill be honest with you, for probably 80% of players, they just see +damage and go “this is good”

Hell ive met and played with players who are doing high corruption that didnt use a planner, or do any math or know exactly their dps etc. they just go on feel and play organically.

The laymen has no need to know what 50% increased damage means exactly to the T.

There is tons of games where you simply have a “power score” that is a nonsense number that simply means bigger = better.

its only confusing because you are looking to minmax, which you figured out how to do. For the normal user, bombarding them with a mechanical formula is going to make them go “oh this game is too complex for me”

Did you know? more multipliers from the same source are additive with themselves not multiplicative? if you have an ability that is 1% more damage per dex like one of the falcons new nodes, that is 1% per dex = total. Not 1% more as many times as you have dex. This isnt something they are going to be able to explain to a player in any manner that is reasonable in an organic way.

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To be fair, I don’t actually calculate damage either. The only reason I think this more/increased distinction is important is because if you think they are they same, then almost all “more” damage skill nodes seem like trash.

Like, why would you spend one of your precious skill points on “6% more lightning damage” when your ring is giving you “96% increased lightning damage.” It just helps to have that intuitive understanding that “more” is way better than increased.

I do like that, especially if the player could then highlight the text to copy & paste it into google or something.