Ideas and Suggestions for Harvest, Reaper Form and Lich Overhaul (Melee Archetype)

Preface

I have been playing warlock a lot since 1.0, simply because its shiny and new. But that doesn’t change the fact, that Lich thematically is still my favorit mastery. Being Death incarnate is the coolest thing ever in a video game for me. Togehter with Harvest, my single most favorit skill in the game it makes the perfect combination. I didn’t create a Supporter Unique for that playstyle for nothing.

With 1.0 out and upcoming patches more frequently on the horizon I think we will see a lot of revisiting older mastery and overhauling and modernazing them.
Warlock, Falconer and Runemaster are just so much better and more interestingly designed (ignoring exploits, bugs and performance)

With this post I wanted to highlight a couple of things that I feel like the Lich mastery is not doing well and some broad suggestions improving them.
This is not meant as a comprehensive improvment post for Lich as a whole, but rather a feedback thread about Melee Lich.

Reaper Form

One of the biggest issues Lich as a whole has compared to any other mastery. It just feels mandatory, because it is objectively so strong, even though the skill spec tree is horrible for the most part. So many uninteresting nodes that do very little paired with some nodes that are simply outshining every other nodes in the skill spec tree.
And even without the skill spec tree Reaper Form mechanically is just very strong, essentially doubling your eHP vs one-shots.

One thing that LE does very well for the most part on other masteries, is that the mastery exclusive skills always feel thematically very appropiate, but you never feel forced to use them, if you want to take the build into a different direction.
With Lich Reaper Form feels thematically on point, but you also are kinda forced to take it, simply because it is that good.

I think what needs to be done to make Reaper Form less mandatory are two things:

  • Remove some of the raw stat nodes and make nodes more interesting. Reaper Form essentially is a glorified Stat Stick Buff Skill for the most part.
  • Create a lot of strong nodes in other skills that are incompatible with Reaper Form (I have one suggestion for that later in the Harvest section)

Reap (subskill of Reaper Form)

This is a skill that you either ignore, or when you have a couple of points spare you can make it not share a cooldown with Transplant and then use it as an additional mobility skill.
Damage is simply not there, even if you would invest everything into it.

What Reap needs is way better base damage and way more damage scaling options, so it feels worthy of being a cooldown skill.
On top of that it needs an entire branch within the Reaper Form Skill Spec Tree, that transforms it from a movement skill into a damage orianted skill. Make it a Big Circle PBAoE or Giant Cone, so its Harvest 2.0 on steroids. (Maybe it can even scale with Harvests Skill Spec Tree)

All the small nodes that affect Reap in small ways are good and all, but they will never compete with things like Global AS, Crit Multi or Inc. Dmg/Crit.
All the Reap Nodes need to be individually way stronger per single point invested, so you don’t need half your skill points to make it even remotely better.

Harvest

Baseline it is an underwhelming skill, it needs scaling and I think that is ok. With Int giving flat necrotic damage the sky is the limit in terms of ceiling.
What hurt Harvest A LOT was the change in 0.9, that made Melee Damage adaptive in the same way Spell Damage always has been.
This took away the most unique aspect of harvest, the Elements of Death node, that converted all added damage to necrotic.
This made lose Harvest the single Unique thing it had above every other melee skill in the game.

A long time ago I created a thread with some suggestions. Harvest has changed slightly but I think most of my suggestiosn are still valid, so I will use a lot of the stuff from that post here.

Good things about Harvest:

  • Strongest Crit Node in the Game, giving 10-50% Base Crit with a serious trade off (10-50 HP lost per use)
  • Int gives flat Melee Necrotic Damage, which helps a lot with the endgame scaling

Problems with Harvest:

  • Depending on what archetype you want to play (Hit/Crit, Ward, Minions, Ailments), the branches are very narrow and don’t offer a lot of variety within each of that archetypes.
  • No attack speed scaling in the skill tree
  • Very few more multipliers (they did added Death Inside, which is a good step, but it needs more)
  • No cool interactions with other skills (they did added one interaction with Spirit Plague which is cool though)

So here are some more generic suggestions for existing nodes and for potential new nodes in the skill spec tree:

Learned Weakness: simply to weak, even for a global buff. I do like things that globally buff your character, to incentives combining it with other stuff, but also 5 point node is too much, change it to 0/2 or 0/3 with like 20-25% crit chance.

Double Edged-Scythe: One of the coolest nodes in the tree.
The following issue is not something related to Harvest, but a general itemization thing.
There is literally one single way- to coutneract self-bleed currently, which is one specific Item. (Namely Exsanguinous). Cleanse is not viable if you spamming main skill is constantly self inflicting you.
Acolyte has another source of self-bleed affliction; Spirit plague.
Giving us more options to play around that would certainly help with build variety, to utilize these nodes. Especially because Exsanguinous forces you into a very specific playstyle (low health ward), making other playstyle not compatible with it.

Blood Sculptor: Very cool node, if you wanna go the hybrid Self/Minion Damage Route, but when your builds heavily leans towards minions and you just want to support them, it makes this nodes very hard to use, since you actually need to deal the killing blow.
Change it so it’s enemies die within 1-2 seconds being damage by Harvest have a chance to summon a Blood Spectre.

Key Nodes

  • Sow and Reap: Harvest deals x% more damage for 4 seconds, after manually casting a curse.
    This would incentive a more active playstyle, not using any source of auto-proccing curses on the target
  • Frenzied Harvest: Gains 1% Attack Speed on hit for 4 seconds, stacks 50 times (each stack has it’s own individual timer)
  • Rich Harvest: Harvest deals more melee damage per ailment on a target, up to a maximum of 5/10/15/20
  • Exorcising Reaping: Harvest does consume all stacks of Damned on the target to deal x% more melee damage. (Damned stacks consumed that way, will not deal their remaining damage)
  • Hollow Harvest: Harvest and all ailments applied by it cannot leech any damage as health. Harvest deals x% mroe damage per y% leech it would have had.
  • Straining Swings: Harvest cost +2/4/6/8 Mana, but deals 25/50/75/100% more damage

Now the final suggestion, going back to the Reaper Form Problem from above.
I think some skills need Key Nodes that are incompatible with Reaper Form.

  • Invigorating Rituals: Harvest increases your Health Regen by 1 per target hit: Stacks 50 Times, Lasts 4 seconds

Minor Nodes

  • Attack Speed
  • Damned Chance
  • Melee Leech
  • %inc. Health Regen, after hitting with Harvest for 4 seconds

Lich Mastery, Passive Tree and 4th missing skill

The Lich Mastery Tree itself is actually pretty good compared to some other classes, it just misses some cool new Threshold Passives.

The only complaint that I have and this goes back to the Reaper Form Topic. Acolyte and Lich does ahve qutie a few % Health Regenration Passives, which I really do like. I love Health Regeneration as a means to sustain. But it is incompatible with Reaper Form, but Reaper Form is just to strong.
These nodes need to be buffed by a large amount to make it a actualy decision going for Reaper Form or HP Regen Build.
On top of that we would need some flat Health Regeneration as well, not only %inc. Health Regeneration.
I would also love to see a threshold passive that gives you % Max Health/Sec (maybe like 2-3% or something).

Couple more generic suggestions for Passives and Threshold passives:

% Endurance and Endurance Threshold. Endurance synergizes so well with what Lich wants to do. We already got tons of new support from the new base types.
Maybe 1 or 2 passives that are very strong, but specifically only affect Melee (So only Harvest and Reap).
Maybe a passive with good melee stats like melee attack speed and the Threshold Bonus: “15% Movementspeed if you hit an enemy with a melee attack recently”

4th missing Skill

With the shift of Soul Feast from Lich to Warlock, this leaves Lich to be the only clas together with Paladin to only have 4 Mastery Skills and only 2 exclusive instead of 3 exclusive ones.
I think this would be a great opportunity to introduce another buff/trade-off skill that would compete with Reaper Form.
So I think something that naturally doesn’t work well in conjunction with Reaper Form would be good, to give it more competition.

I don’t have any concrete ideas, but some rough thematic ones.
I think a skill that has a active and a passive component. Once slotted, it enables you to gather souls of your enemies slain (or on boss/rare hit). Each stack gives you some kind of offensive buffs, but maybe makes you take more damage. Using the active component releases all souls, losing all stacks and deals damage based stacks.

I am not entirely sure how to implement it in a way, that it does not synergize well with Reaper Form though. Maybe if Reaper Form get a rebalance and overhaul it will not even be necessary to make it not synergize.

4 Likes

Good suggestion especially a possible interaction with Reap and Harvest (as a big passive in reaper form skill tree).
Maybe add another way to auto curse into one of Lich exclusive skills with a small drawback to make zooming around less clunky.
I would also buff or make the Lich mastery passives more interesting like a buff that gets stronger the more you kill or hit a boss or as a start buff the passive numbers slightly.

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I don’t know if you’re in time for your suggestions. Lich is currently being already reworked, as per Mike’s statements on his stream. He even went so far as to say that Lich is getting a completely new skill.
We also know that Lich is getting a new unique, since on yesterday’s stream Mike was playing Lich to get ideas on it.

Still, it won’t be released until 1.2, I’m sure. So maybe they still have time to consider your suggestions.

Well, tbf, he made the post back in March, so maybe they already got something from these suggestions to use in the Lich rework.

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Yeah, I hadn’t noticed it was just a late reply, I thought it was a new topic :slight_smile:

I think an additional Form skill as the 4th skill would be perfect as it would not work with Reaper form and give an alternative way to build improving Lich diversity. I think something like a Skeletal/ Undead form would be cool. Mechanically I think it would be best for this form to be focused around Ward, Lich is an Intelligence heavy class but the classic Reaper form/Death seal combo can’t use ward making it feel wasted(I feel Death seal is also overused in Lich). As a drawback this form could have the modifier cannot leech life but would have increased health regeneration and maybe increased potion effect so it would promote hybrid hp/ward through only regen/on hit and maybe it could have a node in its skill tree to switch off the regen/potion effect to help low life (Exsanguinous mod) builds.

Also its skill tree is VERY point intensive IMO.

I largely agree that Reap is underwhelming, although I have made it do substantial damage in my Poison Hungering Souls Lich build.
Its hard to tell the exact amount but I think it adds roughly 150-250k DoT ticks on a training dummy on its own thanks to the Death’s door node giving it a massive 264% more damage when Death Seal is active. This is of course thanks to a lot of other pieces like the 20% more damage from plaguebearer’s staff, 40% more from inspired hunger, penetration from poison overload and aura of decay, %increased damage from low life and death seal, etc.

Edit: One more thing, I never liked the annoying decay and long cooldown of Reaper form but with the monolith/corruption changes and the addition of Boss Ward making fights much longer, I think this aspect needs to be relooked at or even reworked completely.

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Well I am on a quest to improve Lich since a very long time, so this is only one of many posts that are already pretty old to hopefully see interesting changes in the future.

2 Likes

Thanks everybody for reviving this topic. It is very near and dear to me and I like seeing it being revived and getting some attention.

2 Likes

I started my harvest lich, wanting death knight melee build, back in 0.9.2 i think, before warlock. And all this time i can’t make fun for me. I’m glad to hear we get some updates to lich with 1.2. Maybe this time it will work.

While I obviously want improvements and some overhaul/modernization I don’t think that Archetype is in a terrible spot, just a very one dimensional and boring one. Maybe a little bit more power plus more variety.

But what was the main thing making it not fun for you?

Even with all the critique I have this Archetype and playstyle is one of the most fun to me. Especially with Reap and Transplant not sharing a cooldown + the addition of evade this feels like a hyper mobile melee that competes with rogues mobility and agility, while also having huge one-shot protection with good eHP through varies DR sources and Reaper Form Health.

I don’t think Lich or Acolyte needs more ways of auto cursing, there are already so many.

I would go for the opposite and actually implement a couple of ways that specifically benefit builds that manually cast curses (as one skill node suggestion above already)

In conjunction with that specific Harvest suggestion maybe one or both curse skills could also get a Node that makes the curses stronger if they are directly casted specifically.

For me it just feels way to basic.

Harvest is just way to boring with 0 interesting mechanics. Even swipe these days has a few ways to use it, it can summon claw totems, be used as a buffing tool, but used as a dps tool, or as a combo piece with wolves, or used to proc powerful companion abilities on a low cd. its shape and use pattern default is boring, but its tree lets it evolve into many different functions.

Currently harvest is purely a tool for dps. There is a few little things it has that try and make it do cool stuff, but they are just done so limply that they are not viable at all. Blood spectres are sorta like claw totems, but they have a really long cd for summoning and are really weak. there is minion buffs in harvest but require you to crit, or require you to attack a lot of times. both are not something anyone is gonna attempt because necros dipping into harvest just dont have the beef to run into melee and swing a bunch of times for a short buff.

Then I personally really dislike classes like mage or lich where a large portion of the players bar is pretty much set. You need deathseal and reaper form, too much of liches power feels tied to these skills. And since reap and transplant can be made to not share cds, you wanna throw transplant in there. And liches hit a lot so bone curse is just also a free skill. Like pretty much every lich runs Bone curse/Reaper/Transplant/Death seal, then whatever their attacking skill is, Rip blood, Hunging spirits, Harvest what have you.

The archetype isnt strictly weak, but If they keep reaper form and deathseal as powerful as they are, lich will probably remain one if my least played classes because they all feel the same to me.

Dying a lot and reliance on cursing for decent DPS. I tried HP build, low life ward build and neither could hack it. I used reaper form a bit with HP build, but didn’t feel like improvement to me - i probably haven’t found proper nodes that make it so great for everybody else. Also Death Seal on paper doesn’t sound fun or interesting to me, just something i wouldn’t like to use, so i don’t even know if there is something awesome in the skill tree.
So if in order to make decent death knight lich i must use Death Seal and Reaper Form, then it is really limiting, discouraging and underwhelming.
I even tried to change this lich into some spellcaster, but still no go. It’s parked somewhere in its 80s and waits for updates.

Interesting.

Do you mind sharing a planner?

Lich is easily one of the tankiest classes if you build correctly (even without taking Reaper Form into consideration.

Also curses can be automated in multiple different ways.

So I feel like if these are two of the big things not making it fun for you I am very Co fide t that we can fix that for you and maybe make you enjoy the playstyle.

The main offensive things are:

  • Mortal Pulse: Death Waves (you can make them pulse frequently instead of having one at the end. These deal significant damage and also apply additional hits per second while you can still use your main Spammer skill on top.
  • Deadlock: setting your health to 33% when you are above it on activation. This guarantees a large damage boost from a few hundred % increased damage. This does reduce your effective health by about 50%, which is totally worth the risk, especially with Reaper Form, which acts as a failsafe.
  • Kill Threshold: You can get 16% kill threshold with each death wave pulse
  • Haste
  • Frequently shooting out Hungering Souls
  • Single Minion 350% more damage + 350% more crit

One or more of these can also be combined

I agree that with Death Seal and Reaper for a lot of skill freedom seems to be locked. But the rest of the skills are very flexible. You can play Minion, Melee Caster, Ailment, DoT. Lich is very versatile, if not the most versatile mastery.