This is funny 'cause that’s how I feel with PoE.
This I disagree with. When you craft an item from a tier X to tier x+1, that’s progression, it’s just not infinitely progressable if you have the mats like how PoE generally is.
I’m not sure if there is a best way, only different, with pros & cons that some will like & others won’t. I think that’s ok, would you want every aRPG with crafting to iterate that crafting to a single type that the entire genre shares? What if you don’t enjoy it?
+1.
Most mid- to high-tier crafting in poe is done in serveral steps, which are essentially checkpoints.
An easy example of this is:
In these multi-step crafts, you can be mid-way in the crafting, if I am done with the suffixes of an item, I will not have to do that step again unless I make a mistake.
This is what I mean in that there is a sense of progression in POE crafting that LE does not have.
In LE, if I am done with an affix, I have no guarantee that I will not have to do it again, there is no ‘permanent’ progress to speak of.
Of course there are exceptions, but this is my general feeling.
True, there is probably not a best solution in absolute. But at this point I am not even sure of the solution that I would prefer if I was allowed to make the choice.
I know about those. There were systems of “actual” crafting. Where you spent 8 to 10 years of game time just to learn how to forge a rusted iron sword that would not break after the first swing, or after making contact with an object. The toil that the player endured in that particular setting many often gave up because they just did not want to learn they had reinforcement in all three ways, positive, neutral, and negative. The game would break at least 50% or more of the molds in the early stages. Once you got used to the process and refined the steps, such as that too much heat, and not cooling the mold quick enough after shaping, all these things played a part in the process.
There are people that want instant gratification the second they see something they want. Everyone’s viewpoint of ethics is different so you have to try to weigh the competing interests. Motivation is different for everyone, for some, it is an escape, other it is a hobby that they dabble in the gaming industry and are paid to go play other games just to learn and open their minds, and then there are the professional streamers/gamers that do this to make money.
Was that seriously in a game? Or are you referring to the game that some call “real life” (personally I think the death penalty is too harsh in that so I’m waiting for RL 2 to be released with respawns).
Yes, it was and the title shall remain in the dust bin of failures that shall not be named.
I wonder what it would be like to explore the thought of a base specifically for crafting.
Bases in LE are very important, a t20 pair of leather boots is significantly worse then a t20 pair of end game boot bases with res.
So what if you introduced a base of item type thats sole value was in it being able to be crafted to your liking? The numbers are just made up for now as this is just a thought exercise.
The bases implicit would be “Unlimited forging potential, Max affixes are t4” and it would never drop exalted.
Would giving players an option for t16 items in every slot with no shot at failure in exchange for no implicits be overpowered?
Where would the line need to be drawn for it to be balanced? T3? T2?
Currently I think funny enough, that grabbing white bases and crafting them to quad t1 or even t2 is actually possible given enough hope rolls and some crits.
Having gear that is very balanced aka, has all the affixes you want/need but in low value, is generally better then having a chest that has no other stats but has t5 health.
“Schedules of reinforcement” refers to the psychological tendency of humans to paradoxically become more motivated when they fail to obtain a desired reward, specifically that they have obtained through the same effort previously. It was discovered and written about by B.F. Skinner in the 1950’s.
What’s interesting is that as the chance for future success goes down, our motivation actually stays the same or goes higher. I’ve discussed this a bit elsewhere, but basically we could not be any other way; We can’t simply stop looking for things we need in nature like food or shelter when they become scarce. We actually have to try more often and more aggressively until our needs are met.
Where this comes into play with videogames is, the human mind basically treats almost anything we desire the same way. This is because in some fundamental sense, succeeding in a game is like succeeding in practice for life, because play and games are how we prepare for the real thing when we’re adolescent. They’re not just how we prepare, I should say: They’re how basically every mammal prepares. There are embodied social and survival behaviors that are learned through play.
B.F. Skinner discovered that even rats do this; They wrestle. And when measured, they are as motivated to get into a little room to play with each other as they are to do other things like eat. In fact, they’re typically more motivated to play than to do other things. Rats are fiercely social creatures and a lot of what constitutes being a good rat is being a good play partner.
Where this comes into play with something like loot is, as the loot you still want becomes more and more unlikely to drop, you actually become more motivated to keep playing the game to find it, even if what you’re doing between drops is boring and repetitive. You should now understand why I used the slot machine analogy: It’s psychologically the same thing. You’re not having fun playing the game, per se’. You’re just grinding because that’s the way your brain works. The loot system is preying upon your tendency to continue to pursue goals that you have noticed you’re succeeding at less often over time.
This is something that is definitely worth reading up on. I hope all developers will acknowledge this is what they’re doing and try to do it less in the future.
(Edit: grammar / typos / spelling)
This sounds like a cool idea, personally I would like something like this as a special levelling unique much like tabula in POE.
With regards to the issue discussed in this topic, however, I don’t think that this would be targeted in the right direction.
This only fixes the issues with crafting in the early-mid game.
However, I would argue that in that phase of the game the current system is very indulgent.
I have not started a new character recently, but my impression from my last characters was that at that phase the progression was very smooth, with very frequent upgrades.
It’s when you start reaching exalted gear that the progression grinds to a halt.
You are obviously attempting to push a viewpoint onto me that I reject. I gave you the classic adaptation of a chance theory which you also refused to acknowledge. You have deemed yourself the subject matter expert and all must bow to your viewpoint.
No, I will not. have a good day.
We should all be able to agree in our age of technology it is crucial for us to understand how people are and how the software they use affects their behavior. What I’m actually doing is encouraging you to investigate this science for yourself. I think you would find it to be very relevant and interesting if you took the time to look into it.
I did a couple of large trials (1000 attempts) looking into this and found out that without using the upgrade runes, the system is about 1 upgrade more permissive than before the overhaul. With upgrade runes it’s probably 2-3. So it is more, for sure.
But it’s worth considering that the likelihood that you will make an upgrade lategame from this process probably doesn’t increase, since once you make one item through this process, the next one is basically within the same possible range of success. In other words, I don’t know that being able to craft on the same item more necessarily means getting a desirable item sooner. If anything, if you’re spending runes and crafting more, you actually need to grind longer before your next try. Hard to say.
Edit: typo
No, again you are totally missing my point. You are approaching an area I can not go to and have the right to disagree with that method.
Let’s just leave it at that.
I don’t think you can really have an opinion on something you haven’t investigated. As a developer, you develop loot and crafting systems, correct? Seems very relevant. I’d hope everyone would be looking for a better and more ethical approach than what they’re already taking. Especially when it comes to things you’re asking people as paying customers to spend money on, like a videogame. There should be at least some consideration given. More than is being given to it now, anyway.
While I agree there’s no need (I replaced purpose here, for my purposes 
), it would still be nice if it were a realistic chance. As I said up above, I don’t want to shelve my higher level chars, but I really don’t see any other option, given that upgrades past the T16(T20 locked) item stage are basically unobtainable. So I’m just playing my character to rack up more gold, to buy more stash tabs, and mats to craft more “good enough” gear? And I have 10+ chars in this rut… so that just kills the incentive to raise more, because my thought is that it’s pointless because “good enough” gear is all they will ever really obtain anyhow. The shiny carrot is tarnished, for me at least. [Insert the ‘Perhaps this game just isn’t for you then’ simp chants]. Well, sorry. But this game actually appeared like it was going to be the game for me… until the shiny high-end carrot was teased, but then told it would (realistically) never be obtainable.
I don’t agree with you not agreeing (if that’s even a thing). The gear my chars have now isn’t much more impressive than the gear my chars had before the change. I mean sure, there’s more flashy runes, but the overall enchanting achieved is still about the same.
Hell, I wish we’d go back to the old system, and bring back the “X% for each item with this affix” mods. Those were interesting…
I know I’m repeating myself here a little bit but consider what I mentioned to GiraffaGonfiabile a moment ago also; I did some trials and discovered just that. Sure, you can make slightly better items in one go. But it doesn’t necessarily mean you’re getting upgrades sooner or more often. If anything, by lategame you’re probably spending more time and materials for about the same odds of success.
No, but it’s the same thing as playing with a cat. If you never let them actually win, and get the toy, then they lose interest and stop playing your game. Which is a perfect analogy here. Same with the carrot and stick… you have to let the horse eat the carrot at some point, otherwise it will loss it’s designed purpose as a motivator.
What’s also at issue is whether or not you’re motivating the player to continue doing something that is actually fun. If what the player is doing is mundane and repetative, then they aren’t actually having much or any fun. That is my central argument as to why grinding in a game like this is a low quality experience / poor content.
Shocking 
And just how impressive is/was your gear? From my experience, making a tier 20+ now isn’t all that difficult, so either you were making those before, and so the system is very powerful as far as it relates to top end power in the game, or you’re not making those and we need to figure out why.
I don’t know if you can still install old versions of the game like on GOG or something, but it would be interesting to see if you could craft 10 of the same quality item on both pre and post overhaul and see if you can compare the playtime. It wouldn’t be a scientific sample but I’d be willing to bet the playtime is actually extremely similar. Might only be within an hour or two of what it was originally. It could actually be more also, who knows.