I think you guys are interpreting too much into things. There propably isn’t a scientific basis for the decision to implement it as it is. The devs just might have thought “Oh, it’s cool to not exclude 4xt7 items from being able to drop. They are unlikely to drop, but maybe it happens at some point and this might be very exciting for that person and something that will go viral on social media.”
They exist simply because the base item exists as well as the mathematical code for calculating LP/Affix Tiers. They interact in such a way that the odds of getting certain very rare items with high LP/Tiers becomes astronomical.
They didn’t sit down and say “hey, lets put this item in the game that nobody will ever get”. They put the base items into the game and they put LP and Affix Tiers and their roll calculations into the game.
Sure, they could probably tweak the “effective level” but that goes into other balance areas.
So, again, they didn’t actively make the 4LP Ravenous Void exist. It exists as a result of the base Ravenous Void existing in the loot calculation system that was created. They would have to actively make items not exist, not the other way around.
After thinking about this for a moment, I don’t agree with you. But I’ll keep this in mind!
Much better! I assumed this was the reality but since I don’t know for 100%, I wanted someone to chime in to confirm. Still waiting!
This doesn’t change things really though. Having these systems in place is wonderful, but if I -did- want something like a 4lp RV/4xt7/whatever the hell else, really don’t feel like I’d be getting it.
“But you CAN get it!”
No, no I can’t. Not with these ‘astronomical’ rates. Ah well.
I guess my whole issue with the availability of exclusive highest god-tier items is at the beginning of the life cycle of the game. I think that those percentages will come down over time and the item-to-power dynamic will balance out. But if you give everyone the best to start, what else will there be left to work on? Then power creep sets in and then the NERF bat and that horrible cycle starts. I am under the impression that as the game goes live and as time and more added content this issue will sort itself out, if not then change the 0.0000001 to 0.0000005 and call it a day.
Thanks for your replies. I’m really looking for very specific information so sticking as close to the question asked really helps the most. Answering adjacent questions is interesting but if you could keep it as close to these specific questions as possible, that would really be awesome.
I would like to ask another narrow comparison question. I have written out the stats for two hypothetical D2 items and two hypothetical LE items. I’ve intentionally left out what item types they are. I’m sure the eagle eyed among you will be able to tell immediately but I hope we can just look at the stat differences in a bubble. Each item has the same stats as its counterpart. The quantities of these stats are different.
| D2 Item 1 | D2 Item 2 |
|---|---|
| Defense; 444
Chance to Block: 40% 10% Chance To Cast Level 15 Confuse When Struck Level 15 Holy Shock Aura When Equipped +21% Faster Hit Recovery +30% Enhanced Defense +164 Defense +10 To Vitality +50 To Life +51 To Mana All Resistances +6 14% Better Chance of Getting Magic Items |
Defense; 376
Chance to Block: 47% 10% Chance To Cast Level 15 Confuse When Struck Level 15 Holy Shock Aura When Equipped +29% Faster Hit Recovery +30% Enhanced Defense +219 Defense +10 To Vitality +50 To Life +51 To Mana All Resistances +18 23% Better Chance of Getting Magic Items |
| LE Item 1 | LE Item 2 |
|---|---|
| +25% Block Chance
+789 Block Effectiveness +100% block chance against Nearby Enemies 14 Health Gain on Block +13 Melee Physical Damage +59 Health +58 Mana |
+25% Block Chance
+1554 Block Effectiveness +100% block chance against Nearby Enemies 28 Health Gain on Block +9 Melee Physical Damage +177 Health +42 Mana |
I don’t want to get into the specifics of how rare each of these items are relative to each other or how rare each of the sets are to each other.
Questions:
- Would you consider the D2 items to be the same item? Why?
- Would you consider the LE items to be the same item? Why?
Please don’t try to figure out or post if they are actually the same item.
Please don’t post what you think the items are, I’ve been intentionally a little sneaky in defining them and I will update the post with details of what they actually are in a while. I also fully understand that this is a bit of a contrived comparison. I’m attempting to isolate specific properties to find the line. Once I have a few answers, I’ll ask the question again with the rest of the item details revealed.
Edit: I’m going to compile a better set of questions to properly collect data with. For anyone who was curious, the D2 items were a Dream Troll Nest and a Dream Monarch. The LE items were a normal Bastion of Honor and a 3LP Legendary BoH created with a T26 (7/7/7/5) exalted.
I’ll be back in a different thread with better examples. Sorry to derail this one again.
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I would consider them the same item in both cases due to the unique modifier on them. In the D2 case, it would be the ‘confuse when struck’ and the ‘holy shock aura when equipped’. In the LE case, it would be the ‘+100% block chance against nearby enemies’.
All the rest of the stats just seem like roll variation. Or potentially balance changes I guess.
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The D2 item seems to be the exact same item just rolling with different affix ranges. The numbers are not that far away from each other so it looks reasonable to me that it’s just roll ranges of the mods.
The LE item is the same base but the second one is a 1LP Legendary item. The Block effectiveness on the second is only obtainable with a legendary craft as the original unique has not that high of a roll range.
Edit: Whoops… there are 2 more affixes that also arent in roll range of a normal affix. So its propably even a 3LP legendary.
Ok, but aside from trying to do the detective work to find out what item they are. If you didn’t have that information, would you consider them the same item. I really want to stress that this isn’t a test to see if you know what item they are.
they appear to be two separate sets of rolls for the same item and it selects either #1 or #2 and that is what drops on the ground as “found” based on the ranges between the items.
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And this is the crux of my issue. Once you get that baseline for say farming T4 Julra, you’ve pretty much reached your max cap for farming potential. Outside of learning the encounter better, you aren’t improving your clear times/success with gear. In LE, it feels too much like the gatekeeper gear-check for most end-game encounters is also the max upper-limit you will reach in terms of power.
Now, once again, I understand T28 gear, an LP4 Argentus, etc etc (not even counting max/near max stat rolls on gear) is not required. But, as I stated, it just feels off to be theorically power-capped in “good enough” gear. Once I clear T4 dungeons and/or high corruption Monos, I should be gearing so I can clear them more effeciently. Otherwise, what’s the point in continuing that character? “Ok, killed T4 Julra, this char is done”? No, I want to keep playing that char, and I want to keep improving it… sure, there will be a hardcap on power level, but the softcap shouldn’t be so close to the gatekeeper level.
For example. I have a character who farms T4 Julra. Julra gloves are BiS for that character. Once I obtained them (no LP, fairly medium rolls), I didn’t feel a shred of power increase. So now what? I keep farming her for that abysmally miniscule chance of a well-rolled 3+ LP glove? Then what’s next? Pray to god I find an exalted with my preferred stats to meld onto it, and then also pray the correct 3 get picked in the LP combination lottery, or I effectively brick the ultra-rare LP3+ gloves I spent maybe 6+ months farming? That just feels shitty to even want to attempt. It’s why I don’t bother playing that character anymore. And, since I have killed Julra already, I see no need to keep going back through dungeon hell for no power increase on other characters either. Outside of killing Julra, just to kill her, there’s no point. Since there’s not much actual character improvement, if any, to be made once I’m able to kill her in the first place.
All that does is kill my fun playing this game, by simply reaching the end game. There’s no realistic carrot for me to farm, so why would I farm the end game for anything? The game can already be beaten with 0 LP uniques, and T20 gear. And getting above that is a frustrating maze of never-ending RNG lottery, that the player has almost no control over.
Now, to the point about D2 offline, I can’t honestly answer, because I haven’t played D2 since it was relevant 10+ years ago. But I know, I never felt like the game was actually against me reaching uber power levels. When I quit, it was simply because I had found a new game to play (probably one of the MMORPGs I spent years in). So if you want to hear where my line is, it’s simply, ‘give me actual hope I can get these items, and have a reason to keep playing the characters I may have some vested attachment to’.
And yet, I watch multiple streamers who have multiple mirrors in their stash. But I have yet to see a single LE streamer with an LP4 Argentus. I know that probably boils down to the number of players + hours spent in POE, but I wouldn’t imagine the number of LE streamers with LP4 ultra-rare Legendaries will change much, especially given the limited trading that appears to be coming to LE, even after the game releases and more players are playing it.
I think this is where the lack of content, new goals comes to play more so than the gearing aspects. Yes, they work hand in hand. I do agree with the premise of your argument. I am just saying it took a decade for a game like PoE to get to the level of item bloat and power it is now. I still remember doing 20 damage to an act 1 skelly and thought I was a god back in closed alpha.
I guess I am in the give LE time to grow camp.
I know everyone’s already doing it in their heads, might as well save them the trouble.
Would you consider the D2 items to be the same item? Why?
Yes, I would consider them to be the same item. There are very little to any meaningful stat variances between the two items.
Would you consider the LE items to be the same item? Why?
Yes, I would consider them to be the same item. Based on the variance of the stats I would have to assume that some stat ranges are fairly significant for this item and that one item rolled substantially better than the other.
However, the main reason I would consider these the same item is because there's no difference in the type of stats on either item. Each item has the same overall set of stats, but with differing roll ranges.
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Yep, that is exactly what you’d expect from those numbers. Given the size of discrepancy, the player base is irrelevant to the likelihood of finding an LP4 Argentus. The player base could be ten times the size of PoE and still no one would ever see that item.
While I was putting my son to bed, I was thinking of making a similar table. Thank you bro.
I will add from myself, this is personally in my opinion.
T1-T5 may differ by 5-8 times, that is, the difference of even 800% may be within the same item.
The smaller the value of the affix, the more valuable it is potentially, and vice versa.
I’ll try to explain this with an example.
Having a difference of +10 hp and +50 hp, we have a difference of 500%, which is significant, but within one item. If we have +1 maximum resistance and +5 maximum resistance, it can be infinitely different in rarity items.
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But even then, the same problem exists. Even with more content, there will be an end-game. And once that end-game is reached, and beaten, given the current state, there will be no need to farm said end-game, because you will have all the power you can realistically obtain.
It would be like in WoW, where you get Heroic gear, enabling you to do Mythic content. However, Mythic doesn’t drop loot. Or, it drops Heroic loot, with insanely rare chances to drop Mythic gear, at extremely varying degrees of usefulness… but the best gear being something you will never see drop, even within the next 4 or 5 expansions worth of playing.
And that’s what I think is funny about the fears of ‘power creep’ in LE, with items that are currently in-game; By the time anyone actually gets lucky enough to obtain them, they will no longer be the best items (given the natural power-creep progression of these games + future content). Power Creep will happen, it’s just how these games work (new content offers increases in item/character power to entice players to come back). It’s not brought about by items available in-game, but at impossible drop rates. One person having T28 gear (through insane luck) is no less detrimental to the game than 100 people having that same gear because of time investment + reasonable drop rates / item modification systems. In fact, I would argue it’s worse, because one insanely lucky person will have an unmatchable advantage that no one will be able to close the gap on, unless they also sacrifice enough chickens to Jobu to get the same luck-blessing.
We also have to take into account that LE is much more modest in terms of the number of mobs killed per second.
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It’s much worse than that, because that drop rate only applies to Godhunter Argentus, since Wings only drop off of him. So whatever that crazy number was, apply it only to Godhunter kills.
True…
I’m sorry, I don’t get your questions. What do you mean by “the same item”??
They are all not exactly the same item because their stats differ. The numbers on their affixes are not equal.
But that’s very obvious, isn’t it? I really do t get where you’re going or what you want to hear.