they appear to be two separate sets of rolls for the same item and it selects either #1 or #2 and that is what drops on the ground as “found” based on the ranges between the items.
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And this is the crux of my issue. Once you get that baseline for say farming T4 Julra, you’ve pretty much reached your max cap for farming potential. Outside of learning the encounter better, you aren’t improving your clear times/success with gear. In LE, it feels too much like the gatekeeper gear-check for most end-game encounters is also the max upper-limit you will reach in terms of power.
Now, once again, I understand T28 gear, an LP4 Argentus, etc etc (not even counting max/near max stat rolls on gear) is not required. But, as I stated, it just feels off to be theorically power-capped in “good enough” gear. Once I clear T4 dungeons and/or high corruption Monos, I should be gearing so I can clear them more effeciently. Otherwise, what’s the point in continuing that character? “Ok, killed T4 Julra, this char is done”? No, I want to keep playing that char, and I want to keep improving it… sure, there will be a hardcap on power level, but the softcap shouldn’t be so close to the gatekeeper level.
For example. I have a character who farms T4 Julra. Julra gloves are BiS for that character. Once I obtained them (no LP, fairly medium rolls), I didn’t feel a shred of power increase. So now what? I keep farming her for that abysmally miniscule chance of a well-rolled 3+ LP glove? Then what’s next? Pray to god I find an exalted with my preferred stats to meld onto it, and then also pray the correct 3 get picked in the LP combination lottery, or I effectively brick the ultra-rare LP3+ gloves I spent maybe 6+ months farming? That just feels shitty to even want to attempt. It’s why I don’t bother playing that character anymore. And, since I have killed Julra already, I see no need to keep going back through dungeon hell for no power increase on other characters either. Outside of killing Julra, just to kill her, there’s no point. Since there’s not much actual character improvement, if any, to be made once I’m able to kill her in the first place.
All that does is kill my fun playing this game, by simply reaching the end game. There’s no realistic carrot for me to farm, so why would I farm the end game for anything? The game can already be beaten with 0 LP uniques, and T20 gear. And getting above that is a frustrating maze of never-ending RNG lottery, that the player has almost no control over.
Now, to the point about D2 offline, I can’t honestly answer, because I haven’t played D2 since it was relevant 10+ years ago. But I know, I never felt like the game was actually against me reaching uber power levels. When I quit, it was simply because I had found a new game to play (probably one of the MMORPGs I spent years in). So if you want to hear where my line is, it’s simply, ‘give me actual hope I can get these items, and have a reason to keep playing the characters I may have some vested attachment to’.
And yet, I watch multiple streamers who have multiple mirrors in their stash. But I have yet to see a single LE streamer with an LP4 Argentus. I know that probably boils down to the number of players + hours spent in POE, but I wouldn’t imagine the number of LE streamers with LP4 ultra-rare Legendaries will change much, especially given the limited trading that appears to be coming to LE, even after the game releases and more players are playing it.
I think this is where the lack of content, new goals comes to play more so than the gearing aspects. Yes, they work hand in hand. I do agree with the premise of your argument. I am just saying it took a decade for a game like PoE to get to the level of item bloat and power it is now. I still remember doing 20 damage to an act 1 skelly and thought I was a god back in closed alpha.
I guess I am in the give LE time to grow camp.
I know everyone’s already doing it in their heads, might as well save them the trouble.
Would you consider the D2 items to be the same item? Why?
Yes, I would consider them to be the same item. There are very little to any meaningful stat variances between the two items.
Would you consider the LE items to be the same item? Why?
Yes, I would consider them to be the same item. Based on the variance of the stats I would have to assume that some stat ranges are fairly significant for this item and that one item rolled substantially better than the other.
However, the main reason I would consider these the same item is because there's no difference in the type of stats on either item. Each item has the same overall set of stats, but with differing roll ranges.
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Yep, that is exactly what you’d expect from those numbers. Given the size of discrepancy, the player base is irrelevant to the likelihood of finding an LP4 Argentus. The player base could be ten times the size of PoE and still no one would ever see that item.
While I was putting my son to bed, I was thinking of making a similar table. Thank you bro.
I will add from myself, this is personally in my opinion.
T1-T5 may differ by 5-8 times, that is, the difference of even 800% may be within the same item.
The smaller the value of the affix, the more valuable it is potentially, and vice versa.
I’ll try to explain this with an example.
Having a difference of +10 hp and +50 hp, we have a difference of 500%, which is significant, but within one item. If we have +1 maximum resistance and +5 maximum resistance, it can be infinitely different in rarity items.
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But even then, the same problem exists. Even with more content, there will be an end-game. And once that end-game is reached, and beaten, given the current state, there will be no need to farm said end-game, because you will have all the power you can realistically obtain.
It would be like in WoW, where you get Heroic gear, enabling you to do Mythic content. However, Mythic doesn’t drop loot. Or, it drops Heroic loot, with insanely rare chances to drop Mythic gear, at extremely varying degrees of usefulness… but the best gear being something you will never see drop, even within the next 4 or 5 expansions worth of playing.
And that’s what I think is funny about the fears of ‘power creep’ in LE, with items that are currently in-game; By the time anyone actually gets lucky enough to obtain them, they will no longer be the best items (given the natural power-creep progression of these games + future content). Power Creep will happen, it’s just how these games work (new content offers increases in item/character power to entice players to come back). It’s not brought about by items available in-game, but at impossible drop rates. One person having T28 gear (through insane luck) is no less detrimental to the game than 100 people having that same gear because of time investment + reasonable drop rates / item modification systems. In fact, I would argue it’s worse, because one insanely lucky person will have an unmatchable advantage that no one will be able to close the gap on, unless they also sacrifice enough chickens to Jobu to get the same luck-blessing.
We also have to take into account that LE is much more modest in terms of the number of mobs killed per second.
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It’s much worse than that, because that drop rate only applies to Godhunter Argentus, since Wings only drop off of him. So whatever that crazy number was, apply it only to Godhunter kills.
True…
I’m sorry, I don’t get your questions. What do you mean by “the same item”??
They are all not exactly the same item because their stats differ. The numbers on their affixes are not equal.
But that’s very obvious, isn’t it? I really do t get where you’re going or what you want to hear.
Yea, it’s hard to describe and I wasn’t really sure the best way to put it. I’m trying to figure out where the line is for what is considered a different item. Like if you were describing a build and were saying that you need Woven Flesh unique armour to be your chest piece, you’re really describing any Woven Flesh regardless of the rolls. For the purposes of describing what item you need, a slightly above average rolled one is essentially the same as an average rolled one.
So I created 2 items that are more different than that but took away some identifying factors like what colour the text of the name would be written in to see where that line was and used what I thought would be a good control option from another game. I might do up a bigger version of this with a few dozen LE only comparisons if I think it is going to be useful.
So I guess with that extra information, would you consider the D2 and/or LE items the “same item” as each other (within their own categories)?
While it seems you are attempting to be vague to get at certain answers, I think some people in here would very much consider a 0-LP item to be different from a 1-4 LP item. Their line on when they become “different” may vary.
I think in the above example, if you used that LP to add affixes that weren’t on the original item, it would have gotten different results.
Yea, I guess I shouldn’t have used a real example and instead should have manufactured fake ones to get away from this.
And I think it’s less about being vague but rather, trying to isolate variables and ask simple questions.
You also can’t compare like stats like this and get a fair comparison, since this completely negates the players freedom to choose their own stats that LP offers. That’s a very, very powerful advantage with LP.
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I fully understand that. I can see that I was not clear at all. I will regroup and make a proper post with better examples. I wasn’t trying to prove a point or anything, I’m just attempting to collect data here.
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You missed the opportunity to drive people mad by sneak peeking a new or in the work Unique everyone want in the game yesterday :D.
The 7% block chance difference in the D2 example was pretty far fetched thou :D. 7% difference is like the next base item isn’t it? ^^.
If you get LP items and the right mods rolled on it ^^. I think making such examples is best done without any LP in mind.
It’s monarch vs troll nest, both are elite level shields. Monarch is generally considered the best in most situations. They have different block speeds too so it’s not entirely 1:1
It’s your game, so you get to make the crafting system however you want. If you want it like Diablo, make it like Diablo. It is a popular game, after all.
I’d take a different approach entirely, but that’s not for this thread. 
That said, comparing two items with the same abilities but different “rolls”, to me, would almost always be “the same item”. When making builds, there are a few factors that “enable” builds, which I can summarize as follows:
- A wholly unique ability that otherwise doesn’t exist
- A “pool” of stat points to achieve a stat “threshold” across the full gear set.
For #2, a build might require 100% crit immunity and 100% block. I can get those in two items, or I can get them across 6 items + my build tree. I would consider those as two different builds, especially if I had to consume build tree and item affixes that would or could have enabled a whole other “ability” key to the build concept.
However, if I can achieve my build concept with just 2 items, but my build would be slightly stronger if the rolls on those two items were a little higher, maybe allowing me to add a tiny bit of health or mana or something non-build-defining elsewhere as a result, then that’s just “Min Maxing” not build-defining and the better-rolled items would never be something I consider “different items.”
So, really, there isn’t a definitive answer to your question. Sometimes, higher rolls on abilities make or break a build, sometimes they don’t. So, sometimes they are “different items” and sometimes they aren’t.
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