Forging range abit too high?

Feedback and Suggestions
308

Monsignor, please excuse us, we simple idiot of the people. We all know that our advice does not count, and that your word makes law.

Well come on I stop my bullshit, this forum is full of fan boy. Here 1 rule you agree with the developers and of course these soldiers, and you are a good person so the opinion counts. If you have the misfortune to be part of the other camp which thinks that a choice can be criticized in a constructive way you are the enemy that must be defeated and all blows are allowed. It is worthy of the darkest hours of Catholicism or if you did not drink all these precepts you ended up in the log for heresy.

So in short it is useless to discuss on this forum, except of course if you agree with everything and be a good soldier.

Small reminder also, the 3/4 who say that the old system was too easy to use already cheat engine or a save editorial … So good, and can say that the new system is good if he continues to use that. It’s a lot easier with it, so good. It just annoys me that this allows you to cheat and come and give advice afterwards

2 Likes
309

Yes, you are right. This is fruitless. Your take on this is “You are right, and anyone with a different opinion is wrong”. At least I state my opinions as opinions, and not god given facts. Of course, if people want “actuals”, they should only read your posts. I totally understand. Anyone else’s posts are irrelevant if they differ.

Anyway, I’m done with this. I had enough of this type of thing back in the day over at “other” forums. I’m not going to debate things like this with Non-Devs or people who aren’t employed by LE who don’t have access to the actual game engine. We are merely users of that engine, regardless of how mighty or “special” we want to portray ourselves. Only they know the actual specifics.

I have stated my perspective & opinion as clearly and eloquently as I possibly can in my previous posts. I outlined my own opinion on possible amendments as best as I could. Take it or leave it, those posts weren’t directed at players or aimed towards them, so I’m done in pointless debates with other end users. It’s my opinion. I don’t have to prove it or justify it in meaningless back and forths with “armchair experts”. At least I clearly made the point in all my posts that it was all personal experience or opinion only, I never claimed it as absolute fact sent down on carved tablets of stone, unlike other posts.

If I form a new opinion, I might post it. If I change my mind on the whole thing, I will post a modification on my opinion because I don’t set my opinions in stone unlike others. If I have other personal ideas, I might post them as well. I’m not interested any more in debating them or anything else I post with players as it always devolves into this type of fanatical rubbish.

4 Likes
319

Let’s keep replies respectful and on topic.

3 Likes
320

A few things I’ll add to the conversation, hopefully all positive:

  • The guide needs to be updated when you click the “guide” button in the forge interface. It still refers to the old system (I.e. fractures).
  • It would be great if the forging interface were updated to reflect the range of the affixes when using things like runes of shaping or glyphs of order. Ideally, the min-max and the percent the current roll is within that range.
  • I’m not sure about everyone else, but I tend to ignore the “rare items” nodes in the monolith unless it’s for things like chests/helms/relics. One thing that could add some value to those nodes would be to boost the forging potential of the items rewarded. That way if you wanted to focus on crafting a specific item, you could try to get a more workable “base” from these.

Anyway, overall I love the changes.

321

My .00002 cents on the subject. I think I can understand both sides of this conversation. If a developer does not want a 95% item editor in the game and ends up basically doing that, then they are within their rights to remove or modify it to add an amount of RNG that fits their vision. I think part of the issue may be that it seems to some of the player base that the goal post was moved to far. I’m a filthy casual who still has not finished the campaign and so far have had some pretty decent results, as well as some bricks. I recall a comment that a developer made that you don’t want give the player to much and then have to take it away. I agree, but by the same token if you have already given the player something, and need to dial it back ,then doesn’t it make sense that you would also want to dial it back slowly? I also saw an analogy along the lines of a master craftsman does not try and make a beautiful table leg by luck, this is true. By the same token though I as a lowly Sysadmin should not expect to walk into a master craftsman’s shop with a hunk of partially rotted swamp oak and say to them “I have only five hours to spare, and I would like to use your shop tools to turn this into a beautiful bowl”. I think the answer is a combination of dialing back the forging cost some along with a way in the game that is the equivalent of the master craftsman responding "You will not be able to turn the usable part of that partially rotted piece of swamp oak into a beautiful bowl in five hours. However if you are willing to put some extra time and training in over the next several days, I’m sure we can achieve the results you desire :slight_smile:

2 Likes
322

One other addition to all my previous posts I have noticed so far in trying to level up a new character (Marksman Ballista, relying heavily on Dex) is something I would like confirmed or denied.

From looking on Tunk’s pages I noticed a rarity weighting on Affixes, in particular I was interested in Dex
https://lastepoch.tunklab.com/affix/dexterity

I had wondered about this because from level 1 to present I had been trying to use these wonderful Chaos Rolls that we seem to be forced into, to make starter & progression gear. It was almost 100% impossible to get an existing prefix to re-roll as Dex. In 70’ish levels so far I have seen it happen about twice in all the rolls I tried which were in the high hundreds. Prefixes were the main thing I was trying to roll, as I had the luxury of suffixes being very flexible while levelling but I needed as much dex as I could get.

So, while pulling out my hair, I came across that little box on Tunk’s description page stating “Rarity on Items” and the ranges he assigned to it. Is this something official? Is it pulled from the game data somehow? I value the data on Tunks site very highly, so I am assuming his data as a factual thing. Also, it did seem to completely tie in with my rolling experiences thus far.

Then I looked at Str, Int, Attunement for comparison. Str & Int are both common (dex Rare) with Attunement Uncommon.

So first, why is Dex (a base stat) rare when others are common or uncommon?
Second, why is it that if we do try to use the now pushed system of Rng Chaos rolling we are pushed into a triple RNG scenario? RNG of FP used, RNG of type out of remaining prefix pool, RNG of that pool having a weighted chance on top of the “1 in x” chance.

Any item I have got now that has Dex on it, I have had to manually add by selecting it and using a “Hope”. The FP costs for this have crippled the majority of items I have done this on with the first Dex T1. Chaos rolling just doesn’t work effectively to add Dex, which again is a BASE STAT. I could accept this more easily if it were something unusual like a +level affix, but Dex is a Base Stat ffs! I see STR, Int & Attunement rolling all the time, why not Dex?

Perhaps a dev could look at this minor issue. Why should one of the base stats have such a low chance to roll compared to the other base stats? It doesn’t seem right to me. Surely all of the Base stats should all be “common”, like Str & Int?

P.S. This post is my opinion only, and aimed at the devs reading. I am not really interested in the slightest by counter or agreeing opinions from other players, and as such will not be responding to any of them at all.

2 Likes
323

Both Tunk and Dammitt’s sites pull the data from the game files. You have to ask them or a dev what it means as I’ve only ever heard that term used with regards to uniques, though it would make sense to use similar mechanics to deal with affix rarity.

2 Likes
324

I also came across what I wonder is a bug or not. Some affixes seem “stuck” at T4.
I made a bug report at https://forum.lastepoch.com/t/some-item-tiers-stuck-at-tier-4-is-this-a-bug-or-not/46989

So far, gearing this new character has been highly unpleasant compared to gearing all of my other old characters in the past. Perhaps I need to start looking for builds that have “common” weights on all stats I want? Otherwise Chaos rolls are next to useless, as they hardly ever roll Dex (in my case), and removing/adding it manually strips out all the FP almost all of the time. Again, just my opinion and perspective from trying to level up this new character. Level 77 and going miserably slow, mind you a lot of that has been due to rage logging and not putting in the hours :smile:

325

Some items like boots have affixes removed (no longer gets minion health) or changed (reduced values). Check in the build planner website to see if that affix is no longer usable on an item.

326

Without reading this entire thread, the problem I have with the system are just that it’s too (potentially) punishing to add a new affix to an item. The # of affixes on the item should not affect this cost, and it should be lowered to be in the 1-7 or 8 range. Adding a new 3rd or 4th affix carries (IMHO) too great of a risk to brick the rest of the item. So I find myself just maxing the 2, or 3, affixes I really want and then letting rng determine if I get a 4th worth a shit. And I’m usually only crafting on rares with 20+ initial potential.

Of course, this may be the desired crafting experience the devs had in mind, making those 4xT5+ items at least somewhat rare…

Outside of that, I find the rng on Rune of Hope somewhat annoying. Sometimes it doesn’t proc at all for a few crafts, and sometimes I’ll get a fresh newly-added affix up to T5 with a string of crits and 0 costs rolls. So in the end it averages out. I think it’s more annoying when you brick a good item (or rare affix) early in the process, and it feels just as bad as those early fractures did.

3 Likes
327

So far my new character is 79. Levelling has been slower for me than normal due to the nature of the build. It’s a bit more of a glass cannon than I usually play, so I have to do monos with more caution on normal mob packs.

I will make a new thread when I hit 100 on it with the gear I end up with. Up to the present point, my OPINION remains constant. I really do not like this new system compared to the old one. In general I feel far more RNG is in this new system, and that was an overall direction that I had hoped that LE would not go down. In the months I have been playing since coming here from PoE and prior to this patch, the one thing I really loved was the feeling that I had escaped most of the constant RNG being forced upon me. I no longer have that feeling.

All of the crafting I have done so far on this character feels far more like “spinning the wheel” every time. Chaos rolls have just not worked at all for prefixes, I suspect due to the additional rarity weighting. They have come in somewhat handy occasionally for resistance suffixes, but that is about it.

Adding Dex prefix manually to any item I am fortunate enough to find with 1 slot open uses way too much FP almost every time, hope hardly ever procs on adding a chosen prefix. Trying to alternatively chaos roll Dex is like trying to conquer a foreign country armed with tanks using a stick, it just never rolls. So, if I want Dex (which is the main stat for this build) I don’t have another realistic option from adding it manually, or waiting for the very rare drops that already have it on (yes, they are rare indeed).

Anyway, that’s my observations thus far but I will make a bigger post when or if I get this guy to 100 (unless I get completely fed up for the first time before then).

I will say that I do like the new dungeon, even if T4 is madly hard to do. I also like the new legendaries, but I’ve not had as much time to tinker with those as I would like. I did make 2 nice ones for this new character using one of my existing geared toons, so that was fun.

1 Like
328

This reply is entirely feedback for the devs on my personal experience leveling a new character. I’m not going to discuss it with anyone even remotely, or answer any replies to it.

There will be no bigger post on that new character for a few reasons.

  1. It’s way too much of a glass cannon build, and I cannot make decent mono gear for it to give it a fair chance due to the new system. IF I was able to make half decent “mono starter” gear, it might have stood a chance. It does mobs, and mono’s ok, but gets absolutely shredded by Mono bosses and it’s not even close to doing corruption or empowered.

Being Dex stacking based makes it nigh on impossible to craft dex gear. IF I try to get Dex on an item “adding”, I run out of FP, (almost every time with the stupid Hope which never procs), if I try to chaos roll Dex it never rolls (see above). Why Dex is “rare” when all other base stats are “common” is beyond my comprehension. It’s utterly stupid beyond belief imho. We’re forced into using this daft RNG Chaos Rolling, and then one of the primary base stats for an entire class stands almost no chance of rolling using said Chaos. I’m so fed up right now I can’t even express it adequately in words. “Use Chaos” they say, ok, no one mentions that you’ll never see a damn dex roll in your lifetime!!! I can literally chaos tiers up to T5 every time without seeing a single Dex roll. Utterly insane.

  1. Drops just don’t drop with Dex on them for a starting point. Again, why is a Base Stat Prefix a RARE chance? WTF sort of insanity is this? Acolytes want Int, no problem-common, VK’s etc Vitality, no problem, Str, no problem. Dex? Might as well wish for a personal visit from Santa Claus. You cannot cajole players into using a lottery wheel system, then rig the wheel against what should be a common base stat! Jeez, I’ve seen +1 skills at a ratio of at least 10:1 to Dex rolling. That is madness when +1 skills roll more frequently than a base stat! You cannot have Chaos (RNG), then weighting (RNG). That is RNG Squared! Why not rebrand as PoE Remade, the RNG Edition?

Lesson learnt. I won’t be bothering with any build at all that needs Dex stacking. So, now build selection means looking at a build and a) how it plays, b) mono potential, c) attack/defense potential, then most importantly checking the rarity of every prefix/affix of end game gear due to the Lottery Wheel of Madness! If any Pre/Suff that you need a lot of is not “common”, forget the entire build because you’ll never make gear for it.

In fact, I won’t be making another character or playing the game at all for a while. I am taking an extended break from playing. I thought that making a new character would enable me to form a different opinion on the new system by starting afresh, new toon, new filters, new gear etc etc.

Entirely the opposite happened. I’m now even more fed up with it that I was min maxing my VK. Every bit of crafting has made me more and more miserable and annoyed. Sorry, but I’m just not interesting in playing this game any more while this crafting is in this state. It’s not remotely similar to the semi deterministic crafting that I loved when I first started playing here, and it’s entirely too similar to the dreaded PoE “spin the wheel” rubbish that I left and hated.

So, good luck to everyone who wants some changes, and enjoy to those that love this new system so much.

Sorry for the rant but I just feel sick to my stomach and as though I have been kicked in the nuts. I might as well go and play some online poker, there’s less RNG in it.

1 Like
329

It is strange because I was on TeamSpeak with my friend few days ago who started Dex character. When I explained him new crafting (after lvl 20) then he crafted four good leveling items (maxed T3) and two of them with Dex between level 25-30.

330

interesting thread read through.

im coming to this game fresh with no experience of the previous crafting system, i started the game a few days ago with basically 0 knowledge and spent 2 days going at it with my first proper character. i do have a lot of experience with the other arpgs.

my take on this games crafting is that its crazy powerful, more powerful than the other arpgs in practice.

theres a thin line in the sand between “this is insane but its sort of fine and i love it” …vs… “this is a harvest item printer on steroids abomination that shouldnt exist”. this crafting system is cavorting along that line like sheeana dancing her dare to shaitan.

at the end of day 2 i was level 75 i think, was able to breeze through content 5 levels higher than me wearing 2 uniques and then every other item was a rare and every single one of them was heavily crafted, all resists capped, faceroll damage, 0 deaths.

i felt like the power i had to upgrade my gear via crafting was surprisingly strong. obviously theres much deeper endgame and min/maxing than where i was at, but theres no way you log into a game like poe for the first time and day 2 you can craft all your gear like this and smash ur way through maps higher than your character. i dont need to have a grip on this games equiv of a t19 100% delirious or wave 30 sim encounter to know that, know where im at and the equiv in other games.

the thing with deep endgame like that is you dont rly want players in an arpg to be able to make actual perfect gear. the game is about a journey, the ideal situation is the player travels as long as they want and then get off the train, you dont want to run out of track and force them to get off. thats what perfect gear is essentially. the players often think they want the perfect gear, having perfect gear is what drives them, but its a desire, whats driving them is that they dont have perfect gear. wanting it facilitates the journey and the fun happens along that journey, achieving that next step then planning the one after.

this is the dagger im using

[ ]

im doing a phys/bleed throwing attack thing, just a noob to the game making it up as i go along. i found this dagger as a 1 stat blue item quite early in the levelling and i kept tinkering with it along the way and its still what i was using in endgame.

i can already see that i can get better, its got three T4 stats that could be T5 and theres a dagger base ive seen that has % phys as an implicit. and then it could be an exalted item, and then it might be able to be printed onto a unique one with 4 legendary potential?

that sounds impossible, and it should be impossible. i think getting the all T5 version on the ideal base should probably be almost impossible tbh, even getting this one given the complete lack of playtime and game knowledge seemed borderline.

2 Likes
331

my post was getting way too long, i have some feelings about why i like this system so heres the follow up

heres what i love about the system: its interaction with playing the game.

in path of exile you sit down with 500 exalts, 5000 chaos, 15,000 alterations and 6 hours, then you run 1 map, grab the white base item you want and burn through those resources, maybe all day, til you brute force a near perfect item. and then its done… so what next? thats an item slot just finished forever.

what i like here is that unlike poe where actually getting to the point where you have 500 exalts and 5k chaos can be a brutal slog, here i felt like day 2 i got all the materials i need and if i need more i can just play another half hour and get them, its all right there.

instead where my bottle neck is: the base items, cause i want to start with a rare or exalted that is part way there. i play a bit, i find one, i spend a few mins crafting it, i get 3/4 of the way there and it runs dry. now i go get the next base and try again, and again. so im constantly playing and looting and then crafting then playing again. maybe 3/4 is still an upgrade or i wanted phys res but it ran out of juice and its stuck on void res but hey i could upgrade this ring and get phys there instead of void, ok let me make a new filter entry to start hunting for that too…

instead of just saving up forever then brute force crafting 1 game ending item from a white base i feel like im crafting 10, 20+ items for that slot from items im actively looting and getting iterative upgrades for that slot along the way. im constantly back into the game with the next shopping list of items im looking to loot or salvage.

it feels like the crafting is an integral part of the gameplay loop rather than being this alternate means to the end running parallel that effectively bypasses the gameplay loops and delivers you all the way to the end of the rainbow once uve traded for enough currency to do it.

ive never crafted this much on day 2 of an arpg before, ive never gone through so many successive gear upgrades and never felt as empowered to reach out for that next piece of gear i want knowing i have actual agency to have a good pop at getting it. i think thats great.

i see some complaints in here that getting the absolute perfect endgame item exactly how you want it is now harder than before? i never tried before. what i would say tho is the biggest mistake poe made with their system was letting people get perfect items at various points without it needing 1 in a million luck. i think this is a really great balance of giving the player the agency to interact and make their own gear quite easily but having that holy grail perfect item always somewhat out of reach. poe has really struggled there, and actually what always happens is the perfect items start popping up way too frequently from systems that the majority of players still feel somewhat excluded from. this is somehow the opposite, where the casual majority can really interact with the system and get very meaningful items from it while the very top end from what im seeing in this thread still feel that perfection is extremely hard/out of reach.

thats actually an achievement that should be applauded imo.

2 Likes
332

Welcome to LE, it is a great game and you’re only just scratching the surface at the moment.

To clarify a little for you, we’re not after the perfect endgame item, far from it. It might look that way, but once you understand the end game min maxing gear a little more you’ll see that a T20 is not true end game. T20 is something we strive for to start to do empowered (lvl100) monos WITH large amounts of corruption (corruption makes it more rewarding but also a lot harder).

Personally, I (in the past) always tried for a minimum of T18 in every slot before starting to juice up the corruption on emp monos. Of course, a lot depends on the build, some are more forgiving defensively than others, some go for insane deeps & kill before being killed. In general I have found so far though that I prefer my builds to be able to “take a whack”. So, on average over all the builds I have tried T18 minimum seems to be a good spot to start raising up that corruption.

By the time I get near 200 corruption, I really want to have at least T20’s in each slot as life gets quite tough.

However, to give you some reference as to what is above T20, you need to enter the dodgy world of crafting on exalteds. The main reason for this is that the leap on an affix between T5 to T6 to T7 is very large. That is why it is often beneficial to have an item with one T6/7 and less than optimal remaining 3 affixes than a T20. However, crafting exalteds used to be a lot harder than it is now. So that old T20 benchmark has been diluted down. Now in some cases it is easier to craft a T21+ item than a T20 but you mostly need to be able to have RANDOM unchosen remaining affixes.

Why unchosen? That is where my previous posts help explaining. In short, Chaos rolling does not give you an equal chance of rolling the remaining unapplied prefixes/affixes in the pool. I don’t think it should either, as some are very strong indeed such as +1 to levels of skills. However, some of the rarity weightings are a little “odd” when they factor into chaos rollings, such as Dex (a base stat) being weighted as Rare.

So, my personal advice to you would be this. If you are going to rely on chaos rolling (the new rng norm now), then make your life a little easier by going to tunklabs website and checking out the rarity weightings of each affix. If, for example, you want to make a build that relies on Dex stacking say, then STAY AWAY as rolling those Dex Prefixes is insanely tough. However, something that stacks STR say, is pretty easy as you’ll see a lot of STR rolls in the wonderful slot machine.

Anyway, hope that clarifies the difference between a T20 and a T21+ item. You’ll soon pick it up with the further into the game you get. I hope you enjoy playing and once again welcome aboard :smile:

2 Likes
333

Hey Snorkle,
Glad you enjoy the game. And thanks for sharing this unbiased feedback.

Nice to see how new players experience the crafting system.

:v:

1 Like
334

I’m brand new to the game.

I’ve set up my filters to show all Orange/Green/Purples (No further restrictions - I have just started playing)

Blues/Yellows - show any that have +1 to any class skill.
Blues/Yellows - recolor any that have +2+ of any Tier 4 class affix (and a couple hand picked -like potions - etc)
Blues/Yellows - recolor any that have +2+ of any Tier 5 - This is just RNG crafting base hunt.

This has cleaned up my screen a lot - I’m saving ALL relics now. I will eventually make a relic filter with an 80%+ general requirement on all rolls (Depending on the item/class/build OFC)

I’m just trying to find affix shards.

ANYWAYS

This game desperately needs 2 things - assuming systems in place aren’t gutted/ripped/changed too much from the current iteration.

-A way to add Legendary Potential. - - - 1 Time use though.
-A way to add Forging Potential back onto Exalted items. - - - we need a way to hope for a save on decent bases.
*Having a way to have a chance at upgrading a Tier 5 into Tier 6 or 7 (in the same craft - but always guarantees a higher single tier. And it would upgrade tier 6 to 7 as well.) - - - Also an Exalted item only craft that can be used once. (Enchantment/Transmutation/ something like that)

Take care, Happy New Year!

  • Edit* - Personally - I like that we make our upgrades in the Dungeon. It’s a great mechanic.
    Every dungeon needs a full circle gameplay event involved. (Blessing Bonuses - More Crafting benches - or Keys to ADVANCED crafting materials only found in Time Lost Dungeons (Monolith only dungeons - Mini ‘dungeons’ though.)
335

@Maelstromicus

This is absolutely mad.

You entire feedback from the last few posts is focused on that "one thing, since you apparently found out about affix weightings.

Affix weightings do exist in LE, yes. (Like in every other similar game)
If your build does need a specific affix that is rare, you can setup your loot filter accordingly
and try to only show items that already have this affix on them or at least make them stand out more.

Giving feedback on these affix weightings is something that is totally valid,
but hammering on this for post after post after post, in a crafting feedback thread is not helping the discussion.

Alot of your feedback focuses on the Glyph Of Chaos, which is only one of many ways to craft in the new crafting system.
Glyph Of Chaos only applies to 2 scenarios:

  • Item dropped with undesired affixes
  • Used rune of discovery

You say the new crafting system is more rng then before, but there is not a lot that changed,
other than crafting from T0 to T1 got relatively more costly (even though you cannot directly compare fracture chance and FP cost).

Furthermore I wanted to show you a little table I created, to show you that it’s not as bad as you think it is in your head.
From the observations I made here, Glyph Of Chaos re-rolls weightings are not that significant.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CuV_O_i2Yh4u0NXH7TC1VHaD9Y17WkVoWIoBlfLpqVA/edit?usp=sharing

A few key things about how I created the statistic:

  • I only re-rolled Boots with 1 prefix (because the 2nd prefix would block the outcome roll)
  • The affix weighting excludes all rolls, that already have that affix on it to now skew the overall % weighting
  • Of course the weightings would become more accurate and representative if oyu increase the smaple size, like how it is with all statistics.

But I am happy if qualified people like @Llama8 give feedback about my approach and potentialy improvements.
But I think I do not have any major flaws in my approach.

The only thing where I am really not sure how to present the numbers accurate, is the weighting%, because depending on the origin affix that get’s rerolled the weighting is skewed. (Rolling from strength [one of the more common affixes] has a higher chance to re-roll into dex, than re-rolling from minion dodge rating [rare affix] into dex)

Takeaway: Don’t base your entire feedback on things that other people (in this case a 3rd party software) state and apply this to all other parts of the game.
This is one of the cases where knowing too much about a game can easily lead to false or skewed assumptions because you think you know how stuff works.
And then feedback is not based on personal experience, but on assumptions and guesses.

PS: Just in case people come up with some conspiracy theories
and try to portray me as not trustworthy I documented some parts of my process on creating these statistics.


I am here as much as everybody else to make this the best game possible and for this it is of utmost importance to base feedback on either:
Personal experience
or
Proven “facts”

336

This is why you need a much larger sample size (IMO), but I’m not a statistician.

But I’d be happy to look through your personal tax & tell you why you’re not paying me enough money.

1 Like