Forging range abit too high?

You’ve already stated that you disagree with me plenty of times. Hammering on about that doesn’t help discussions either.
Afaik, I am free to post my opinions in these forums. Afaik you are not a moderator. It’s ok for you to keep hammering on about how you like the new system repeating the same things over and over, but if I do that from an opposing viewpoint then in your opinion that is detrimental to the forums. Right. Cancel culture at its best.

Your posts containing data are useful, but kindly keep your attacks on me out of it, as they are starting to appear rather personal.

In light of that fact, that every time I post, you post an attack I see no option but to block you.
Happy New Year. Find someone else to troll.

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The crafting is already extremely powerful and you want to make it even more powerful. And crafting didn’t got harder, exactly the opposite. Also you don’t get high forging potential rolls most of the time, again it’s exactly the opposite, it’s weighted towards lower values.

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I feel restoring forging potential has to have significant cost. I think along the lines of restoring the item to the state it originally dropped in, so you get to have another go on the base item but not proceed from an item you already manipulated. On top of that, probably give it less forging potential than it had originally.

You cannot allow infinite iteration on the same base item.

What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

you need a block in the road somewhere right? otherwise the game is just a crafting simulator, something has to prevent crafting from being collecting 1 of each correct base then standing at your stash clicking the button till you have a full set of perfect gear.

im a new player here so give me 2 years with this crafting system and ill have a far more informed take than i do right now after a couple of days. but as i see it right now i really like this idea of forging potential being the stumbling block that prevents you from perfecting things.

im gonna compare to poe which also has immensely powerful crafting, its important to remember poe is a trade heavy game too so that also factors. what happens in poe is that you can infinitely tinker with an item, but you are limited by crafting material availability. the result in that game is that anyone can throw an alch on an item, but serious crafting feels very much like an exclusive club.

the vast majority of poe players feel like they get very little from serious endgame crafting, its a system where the materials to do it are very rare, very expensive but given enough of them ultimately limitless in power. so what happens is it becomes a playtoy of ultra elite players because if youre gonna waste currency crafting a thing it had better be the thing to end all things, its too expensive to craft a quite good item a lot of the time. then once you have that amazing item theres no point looting anything, its better to start with a white item and basically ignore dropped rare items if ur gonna craft.

by contrast here it feels like we have somewhat unlimited resources. i run out of a specific shard quite often but its just a case of add it to my filter and i can shatter some more within an hours play, if i needed glyphs or relics i can target them on the monolith system, its all there to play for. thats the opposite of poe where you might find 3 exalts in an hour one day and then go 100 hours without finding any more.

by the limiting factor being how much u can craft on the base the result is that you now care deeply about rare gear that drops, because you want something as close a possible to start from. so rather than the craft system invalidating the looting rare items side of the game, it strengthens it. then because you run out of potential and need another rare/exalted base to work on that further pushes looting these items and playing more, being excited about your rare/exalted drops.

what you get is that its easy and cheap to make half good items, quite good items, its accessible and it works in harmony with playing and looting already rolled gear. but you need to get rly lucky with ur hopes etc to push through and get really good gear while keeping perfect kind of impossible. it means you have a lot of iterative upgrades in endgame, you keep improving on your last item by a small margin. im not afraid to craft, im not afraid im wasting resources by tinkering with an item, by chancing my luck.

path of exiles orb system kind of does the opposite, it invalidates the looting game, it requires you to sort of play less and trade more in a way, its quite inaccessible to an average player and is inefficient at getting the average player their quite good next item upgrade… but it does churn out obscene perfect gear that shouldnt exist for the very elite players which forces ggg to constantly further restrict accessibility for the masses to keep that small percent of players in check. even for someone with many 1000s of exalts on hand and mirrors and all the nonsense you can be hesitant to attempt to tinker with items too much because the rabbit hole is endless, you can go forever till the item is perfect in theory but the cost is also infinite and you will regret ever starting. its a system with a lot of feels bad in there.

so i would worry about an ability to add potential back to an item. i think the system then becomes easier to make closer to perfect items and it pulls you away from the playing of the game that comes with ruining a base and needing to loot the next base to go again. theres a lot of benefits to having a system where you have this insane accessibility to an endless supply of crafting materials that are super powerful but then you keep the entire system in check with quite a tight bottle neck on an item by item basis via this forging potential. you dont feel bad for wasting materials on a failed project, youve just wasted the base, and you dont feel bad for wasting the base because it had to be attempted, at some point its limited forging potential had to be burned to see where the item ends up, nothing was lost in the attempt that should have been saved for a different project. i think forging potential and legendary potential are really the gatekeepers here that are maintaining the games item system integrity, its longevity, and relaxing those gates seems very dangerous.

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A small update.

Over the last 3 weeks I’ve tried making gear for 3 new builds. One was a Mage, one a Druid, and lastly the Marksman. The build specifics are slightly irrelevant.

It has further reinforced my opinion that the new system is way too much RNG / lottery wheel compared to the old system. I personally absolutely hate using chaos rolls. As soon as I am using those, I mostly look at the item as already “bricked”.

After many more hours of experimenting with this new system I still come back to two of my original ideas that would make it feel so much happier to me.

  1. Reducing the cost of adding a CHOSEN T1 &
  2. reducing the cost of removals.

I think those 2 changes would not affect those who enjoy it completely as it is, but would make those of us who like to craft rather than gamble on a wheel spin happier. I’m comfortable enough with getting penalised (or not) trying to upgrade Tiers & bricking items trying to upgrade Tiers. The costs & failures in upgrading tiers doesn’t bother me, bricking items trying it doesn’t bother me. Trying to get the right affixes in the first place to start that process does annoy the crap out of me.

I find that due to those 2 things above, I have to spend way too much of my time messing around with crafting that I ever did before. THAT is not what I want to be spending a large portion of my time on in LE. Instead I would rather be spending time killing things & farming target items/blessings.

This has been true on all 3 builds now. I would guess I’m spending 3 times as much time on crafting as I used to do on all the other builds I ever made. It’s not personally why I play the game and it’s detracting from my enjoyment. Each to their own, this is just my own personal opinion - updated & modified.

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Yes, it is too much. Forging Potential needs to scale with tiers.

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It does, which relatively speaking stayed the same (compared to the old crafting system) , because % success chance also scaled with tiers.

The only difference is, that T0 (empty affix slot) to T1 has vastly increased costs now relative to the old crafting system.

Which is how it should be, because just choosing exactly which affixes you want is very strong already.

Don’t think I agree with you on that last part.

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After many players responses on the forum about being unable to craft exactly what they want and how frustrating it is, I’ve been trying to test deterministic crafting - i.e. not playing “guess the card” with the RNGGods using Chaos Runes etc… but using a more methodical logical approach…

Generally finding a good base with 2 to 3 affixes you want and then doing things like removing affixes, re-rolling Tier affixes and adding specific affixes you need manually…

After much testing and messing around, I can honestly say that compared to playing with lady luck, deterministric crafting is virtually impossible using the current FP ranges… You can barely make a t10-15 item you want, but trying to aim for a T16-T20 using the least random crafting methods is just not possible.

I have not kept any specific logs of my tests and this is all subjective, but I have had exponentially more success using Chaos runes and a gamblers/dont care what happens attitude when trying to make higher end late game gear…

Sure, deterministic crafting can be too powerful if it didnt have a cost, but I would suggest that its too hard right now to create mid/late game items. So hard in fact, I would guess that even restricting deterministic crafts with limits like manually added affixes max out at T4 level would actually be better than the current system because you could potentially get to a t16 item - which in my experience would be better than you can right now.

So… I dont mind using the RNG Chaos approach and am fairly successful at it (it does require a certain mindset), but I definitely understand the frustration players are having…

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That’s not my experience.

You can brute-force until it works if you have the materials, I did it with a weapon that I wanted with very specific affixes, all four of them.

A setup the filter for that specific weapon base with any of the wanted affixes, and just tried over and over until I got what I wanted, I got a T17 from a blue T4 IIRC. Yeah, very lucky, but not without LOTS of previous attempts.

The main problem is that you were used to the old system, not that the new system is not good enough.

Sure… Maybe I phrased it wrong… I have made a few T15+ items using a deterministic route - its not impossible…

BUT

In my experience it cannot compare to the successful T20+ crafts I have been able to do with going the RNG Chaos route… I have plenty of maxed out exalted items that I created purely using Chaos / Hope runes - most with a good/great combination of affixes needed for various builds… By comparison, I have very few higher level items items where I have attempted to manually create items with the affixes I want…

No. I am evaluating the system on its own… Not in comparison to the older versions which I have experienced… I think 1500h playing LE disqualifies me from making that mistake.

Setup filters etc… I have been around the block a few times playing LE with the various iterations of crafting and I have always favoured specific filters to find good starting items and I have always advocated (and still do) doing crafting on higher base tier items > T10 perferably T12 with at least 2 ideal stats… I did not change my approach when testing…

All I am trying to say is that, in my experience with the new crafting system, going the RNG route is MUCH more profitable and satisfying than trying to craft specifically for what you need. and honestly, I dont mind it, but I definitely understand the feelings of those that do.

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At the contrary, the more hours you have put in, the more likely those hours are under the old crafting system. I am not saying it is your case.

All of us are susceptible to this problem. If you get your driving license, and start driving with a old slow car, you feel amazing because you didn’t drive before. But imagine if you were driving a high-end sports car for many years, the car breaks, and you end up next day with that old slow car. I assure you will loathe that car, you feel so slow and clunky while driving it, screaming to heaven WTF you did to deserve that horrible experience.

Same applies here. Many people were used to the overly-deterministic (still lots of RNG involved) crafting before this big patch, the new system feels horrible, despite being so much better than before, and so much more healthier to the game. A loot-centric game where you can skip the loot and craft your ideal piece of gear with a white item…

You don’t need T20s to get your build in shape, I have a build with two great Legendaries and half of the items are exalted, still I had to seal de deal with a T16 item, with 4 T4 affixes that happened to be at least high rolls, just because base + affixes is just what I needed to balance my desired stats + resistances, and I wasn’t able to craft anything better with those affixes.

But you are and being a little condescending about it… Not sure why you cannot take my observations at face value but anyway.

At no point did I say I dont like the new system nor did I say that “in comparison to the old version”… I was at pains to compare deterministic crafting vs RNG crafting in the CURRENT version.

I am not talking about what you need as a viable craft for a particular build or anything like that… I am not making an observation that everyone needs T20s to make builds work… Thats just stupid and an assumption that only a new player would make.

I am making the observation that I UNDERSTAND what people are complaining about. I do not use determistic crafting in the current LE crafting system. I did the exercise to try and figure out what people were complaining about and to some degree I was successful.

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Sorry if that was your impression. We are trying to argue about different points and different POV at once, is a bit of a mess to lay it out properly for me.

  • I do think you are being fairly objective, and I don’t think your testing and the results are a failure. The thing I wanted to share is, you’ll get the shards, so you can brute-force the lower chances at some point, and worked for me.
  • My comparison with the old version is what I believe is the most common cause of rejection of the new crafting despite being better.
  • The T20 thing was a bit out of place, is something I feel as I read so different comments, that obsession with T20s.
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There were way too many post to fully digest everything, but aRPG itemization basically boils down to some sort of “investment” to get a “result”. I am satisfied with what I find in the crafting system currently. Affix shards are cheap so we should expect to invest dozens on each relevant stat before we arrive at an item we want to keep. Think of crafting as another way to get “drops” rather than a way to make the perfect item you want.

That being said, I can understand how people would like a mechanism to take away some of the randomness. It is possible to ruin a good item trying to fine tune it.

Maybe the right idea would be new glyphs? Modestly costed ones that reduce randomness in crafting, particularly a “reversal” glyph to undo a bad craft for a cheap but consistent cost.

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I think that actually a really cool idea!

I guess it should be a rune and not a glyph though. Being a “craft on it’s own”, not in conjunction with other affix crafts.

“Rune Of Undoing”

It should be decently rare, so you will not use it for every item and maybe have a small cost of 1-5 FP, if it’s rare enough.

“Reverts the last change made to the items”

So basically the main purpose would be to undo Runes Of Removal and maybe in some edge cases Glyph Of Chaos if the end result was worse, even though the initila affix was somewhat usefull.

To qualify a little your discussion with @vapourfire , he has been around for an eternity. Vapour is also one of the most objective thinking people I have engaged with in these forums. He analyses things and is very good at adopting a neutral perspective in that analysis. He has a terrific grasp of the mechanics of the engine. So, I would take what he says with serious consideration.

On the other hand, you have been a member here for less than 1 month. So, first, welcome aboard and I hope you are enjoying the game. Second, and I do mean this with the greatest of respect, you probably have a few hundred hours of catch up to be able to go “toe to toe” with Vapour debating on a somewhat level playing field. Experience in other arpg’s, while very handy, doesn’t necessarily directly translate to experience in LE, as this game is quite different from the usual run of the mill arpg in terms of game mechanics & engine.

@vapourfire thanks for taking a look at trying out the non chaos crafting. I am glad you have also seen the pitfalls and can now empathise with what I have been trying to say. Hope you had a good holiday & have a very happy new year old chap.

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First, thanks for the kind words, I appreciate it. Also great to know @vapourfire has a proven record of such qualities inside this forum.

Well, that’s the fun thing of the internet, you don’t know how much insight and knowledge anyone has when you discuss with him on any forum. I could bring in my gaming and ARPG credentials, but would add nothing to the discussion, other than useless bragging.

I am fully aware I’m fairly “noob” to this concrete game, I think I have a good grasp of all of the general mechanics, but that’s far for having a full comprehensive view of the game, its progression, not to mention missing out on many details I just don’t know about.

But doesn’t matter, anyways short version, we discussed a bit, I went a bit off-rails and didn’t communicate properly, apologized clarified a bit, he accepted it, end of story.

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I don’t know if I was clear enough, but I said it needs to scale with tiers in terms of the Range cost. To be able to spend almost all your forge potential in 2 or 3 crafts in a unlucky scenario is not and interesting feature. If want to gamble for success I would rather play on cassino.

EDIT: Not being rude or anything but crafting does not need to have a LUCKY element dominating it. It can just cost X materials and make players farm more. So yeah, maybe a conjunction of ideas and changes would be nice.

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