I never said we shouldn’t improve LE’s endgame. I was just saying that PoE’s endgame is the result of 10 years of development by an ever increasing team. It didn’t happen overnight.
EHG being a small team means that they can’t just create 20 different endgame mechanics in a couple of years.
LE does have endgame though. There are 3 different endgame mechanics in place right now, which is actually more than D4 did with their teams of thousands and budget of millions. Are they enough in the long run? No. Which is why the devs have stated that they will add more mechanics over time. But for now, we have endgame and there are still core systems missing, like masteries and skill trees. It’s a matter of priorities.
And yet D2 is still alive and kicking 25 years later despite having no endgame whatsoever. So it’s that linear.
Class balance im not so sure why is left on the back burner for such extended periods of time in this genre.
Like of the big games, D4 feels like they simply dont try, or nerf weak classes for random reasons? I dont play this game, but it sounds like they just nerf slightly niche specs that are overperforming and leave blantently strong classes alone. Which is just… not even trying.
PoE will literally let a class sit unchanged for years, which again is not even trying? or they change the class and it just ends being even worse then it was before.
I feel like LE has the best chance at making it work. For a long time the classes felt balanced. But they sorta do the PoE thing where they let classes sit unchanged for literally years, its crazy to me that 1.0 is going to drop without major class balance. The fact that shaman is getting some love, but will need another revisit just feels a bit strange.
like I really like how league of legends does it, they dont always get it right, but they are constantly moving power around in small incremental amounts. not all balance needs to be large and sweeping. Every cycle they should be looking to shift power around in the classes to bring them inline, but I have a feeling its gonna be more like PoE where they will just let it rot until its time for a big rework.
To be fair, it’s not easy to balance things out in an ARPG. There are way too many mechanics that interact with each other and if you fiddle with one you end up affecting other classes as well. Not to mention that player ingenuity usually finds ways to “break” things unexpectedly (from the devs viewpoint).
The problem with letting classes stay unchanged for long periods of time is simply one of development time. It takes quite a while to analyse, come up with a solution that doesn’t break something else, implement it, test it, etc. It’s something that has to happen gradually and by the time you end balancing the last class the first one is again unbalanced due to new stuff you implemented.
What I’m trying to say is that it’s not really easy to accomplish, which is why no ARPG did this and some don’t even bother too much with it. I hope LE comes close, but I doubt it will ever be really balanced.
That said, I care a little bit about balance. But what do we mean by ‘balance’. If you are focused on leaderboards and there are single percentage point differences between classes on those leaderboards, and that’s not good enough, I think most folks would think you need a different hobby (I’m not saying anyone is saying this, I’m saying ‘balance’ is a super overloaded word, and you should define what you mean by balance).
Here’s what I mean when I think of balance;
If a class is boring to play, but because of numbers and ease of use it’s a strong performer, I’m ok with them leaving it as-is as the easy mode class. Not everyone is a prodigy or even good at these games.
If a class is underperforming, but has a great class concept, fix that shit.
If a skill or combo is so far out there that it’s breaking things, I think it’s in the developer’s best interest to fix that. If a skill or combo has a great concept/appeal, but is clunky to use or underperforming it’s in the players best interest to encourage the developer to fix that shit.
Shaman is the poster child for underperforming class and skills and I have high hopes that the update/rework is awesome. (is it a rework? Not sure, but I hope it is)
I never said we shouldn’t improve LE’s endgame. I was just saying that PoE’s endgame is the result of 10 years of development by an ever increasing team. It didn’t happen overnight.
EHG being a small team means that they can’t just create 20 different endgame mechanics in a couple of years.
I am curious what your point is here? Are you saying that since they have a smaller team and havent had as much shelf-life as some older games we should not be upset or critizise things we do not like with the game? You do understand that EHG is a for profit company right? They have a product they are selling, for profit. We as consumers will buy the product (and keep using it, and supporting it) if we enjoy it. Our enjoyment is not based on EHGs development history or team size. It is completely irrelevant to the enjoyment of their product.
So when people are bringing up what they perceive to be issues with their product it is fairly lame to make excuses, as if that would make them suddenly go “ohh, yeah, true. I guess I will like the game then”.
I am in the camp of thinking that LE is quite lacking in content and difficulty for my personal taste, but maybe I am just not the target audience, which would be fine if that is the case, but having people make excuses as if that is going to change what I enjoy or not is beyond weird.
If you want to have an intellectually honest dialogue with people you disagree with address their (perceived?) issues, don’t try and explain why people should look past them because EHG so smol, new and poor.
I’ll end by saying (since it seems the norm that people automatically assume you hate the game if you disagree with anything) I am rooting for EHG and I want their game to do well despite me not being 100% on board with the current state of the game.
EDIT: Should also say that I don’t like people who are critical for the sake of being critical or argue for the sake of arguing, but I don’t see anyone being especially abbrassive or arrogant in their critique here, to me it seems people just want the game to be (in their subjective opinion) better and I am sure that a constructive conversation would be more fruitful than asking people to change what they like based on the facts you stated.
All I’m saying is that you can’t compare compare EHG with companies like GGG or Blizzard, so you have to set your expectations a little lower. It’s fine to not be happy about something in the game, but it’s not honest to compare LE’s endgame to PoE’s and to say that any ARPG that is released that doesn’t have PoE’s staggering amount of endgame is immediately trash.
All I’m saying is that you can’t compare compare EHG with companies like GGG or Blizzard
We can however compare their products. And that is not unreasonable at all. I think LE does many things better than D4 for example while I also think D4 does some things better than LE (and even PoE, animations comes to mind). If it is fair to compare LE to D4 in order to say “LE does X so much better” and you’re not upset by that, you should be just as indifferent to the reverse.
We all want to enjoy the game, no one (in this thread afaik) is attacking EHG or LE.
I don’t agree with this. If you have a kid and he can play a game better than a professional, it’s fair to say it because it’s a point of pride. However, if you shame a kid saying he can’t lift as much weight as a bodybuilder that isn’t acceptable because it’s an unfair comparison and is just shaming the kid.
The fact that LE did some things better than D4 is a point of pride, but most especially is a detriment to Blizzard. The fact that D4 has a great character customization and cinematics is an unfair comparison that only hurts the image of the game.
That feels like an attack, which is what I was responding to.
If you have a kid and he can play a game better than a professional, it’s fair to say it because it’s a point of pride. However, if you shame a kid saying he can’t lift as much weight as a bodybuilder that isn’t acceptable because it’s an unfair comparison and is just shaming the kid.
Oh boy…
This is no longer a conversation I feel I can carry on with any kind of sincerity on my part.
I don’t have as much playtime as some here, but I also felt the game’s leveling process is pretty easy, though that didn’t make it any less fun for me.
When it comes to endgame, I definitely think they need to add some tougher challenges.
With Tencent investing, do you reckon the game devs can push out content updates and fixes faster? I’m really hopeful about that
I would love to have the monolith timelines, be an account and season unlock for the account, the same way the atlas map completion works in poe. This way, you can get your next characters up and running way faster even if they dont have a zoom zoom build. Some builds are amazing at bossing, but sucks ass to do the corruption and mono grind, due to how little zoom zoom they have in relation to an actual speed build
Nah, that is not what I was suggesting, my sugggestion would still have monolith progression to be character specific.
But once you completed normal monolith once you can do 50 Corruption Normal monolith with consecutive chars, just to have a smoother difficulty curve from campaign → normal monoliths → empowered monoliths.
Having all timelines open with consecutive chars would make it really weird for a lot of people, because most people would probably want to shoot for completing all the character power blessings, but some of them are pretty high level and then it might be too difficult for some builds.
A) It’s really fucking hard
B) It’s not always as objective as some people think
C) It’s not the big marketing thing that some people may or may not think it is
D) They have other priorities (like adding new shiny stuff related to C)
E) It’s not an e-sport so there isn’t quite the same pressure to get things on the nose, plus there’s an aweful lot more moving things to take into account
It is, but you need to do that without gutting it in any other potentially underperforming situations.
Water is wet. People who do their jobs well, do their jobs well. We seem to both be firmly in the same camp of, “balance is not the highest priority”, not sure why you picked that one sentence out. Basically I’m saying that if a developer leaves something too powerful in game, players will flock to that and then complain about difficulty and skill options. It’s in the developers best interest to curtail that, and do it in a way that doesn’t fuck a bunch of shit up.
Also, at a meta level, this should be a considered a cautionary tale to devs that are looking to add complexity to their games. If you are leaning more toward an e-sport type game where balance is critical, complexity and interaction are not your friends.
I think EHG has been pretty clear that fun and enjoyment are job one. Balance? There are many things ahead of balance in the LE list of things to do. It’s there, sure, but if, as a gamer, balance is super high in your list, you might want to consider LE as a game to play when your tired of being sweaty and need a break.
The difference between normal and empowered monoliths is pretty big and if you’d rush to those you’d get there while still being under lvl 80. Without any farming done beforehand is how it should be aproached, cause it is doable that way. When you twink your char of course its gonna be easier tho. But also echoes get harder the further away you get from your starting point. It’s pretty easy to faceroll on a lot of builds till then with the crappiest gear ever till you’ll start to get one shot and put some thought into your char, gear and playstyle. On my necro I didn’t have to change my gear from lvl 14 till empowered and even when I did change it with halfway decent stuff I could die pretty easily, mainly cause I was playing with an infernal shade build without lich’s envy gloves, cause I’m saving those dungeon keys for later.
This might change in 1.0 tho and the whole game might get taken up a notch in difficulty.
A cool game with a lot of fun and interesting gear / build systems that you never have to interact with because the game has zero difficulty.
You start steam rolling the game starting at around level 5. There’s no reason to pick up gear or spend skill points as you can hold LMB through zones and 1 tap everything.
This player power never goes away, and continues throughout the entire game. This makes it so you don’t need to upgrade your gear or even make good builds, or interact with the crafting system because you’re already a walking god.
These games are about getting to the point of steam rolling the game, but this game gets there within an hour of gameplay, making it pointless to continue playing and improving your character.
The lack of difficulty completely ruins the entire game.
