So what you’re saying is that EHG should simply disregard anything the community ever says. I guess they should just start by deleting the forums then.
3 Likes
One of these bugs was literally causing servers to crash. We wouldn’t have stable servers today if they weren’t allowed to fix it.
On top of that, to come back on your example; of the 20 patches PoE had between 1.0.0 & 1.1.0, 14 had changes that either buffed enemies or nerfed players in some way or the other. I stopped counting after that, but if you want to, here’s a link to start: Patch Notes - Forum - Path of Exile
Or to put it in the words of someone else on these forums:
1 Like
Gotta love it when someone takes a portion of my comment so they can use it out of context.
No problem. This portion is such a silly take it renders everything else pointless. Fixing a bug != nerfing a build. The whole first season of LE was a clownfiesta in many regards and the only postive thing they did was fixing bugs. Everything else in this season was a trainwreck.
If you think bugs are good and should stay ingame then you should simply be up for a lot of people who think your take isn’t a good one no matter what.
I don’t agree with @Ahewaz statements regarding bug fixing during a cycle that affects builds.
But what you did is taking something completely out of context.
That is absolutely unacceptable. Regardless if you agree or not, taking someone out of context is something that steers discussions into wrong directions and sometiems can lead to misinformation.
Here in a forum, in text form it might be less of an issue, because you can always look up the original statement.
But on the internet I hate this behaviour, when you can’t even look up the original source.
But if you think that his statement out of context is so “stupid it renders everything else pointless” I don’t know why you are here in a forum discussion opinions.
They expressed a very well constructed opinion with a condition and you take the condition out and quote the rest of the setence without that said condition.
Whether you agree or not is a different discussion to be had.
But rendering everything else pointless while not taking the rest of their statement into consideration is something that is even more stupid 
2 Likes
Even if I take the whole sentence it’s still the same 
. He wants bugs to stay in the game. Everyone should know what bugs are and that this kind of unintended behaviour of a code is to be fixed asap. There were other games you get even suspended using bugs or making them publicly known.
I don’t care about the time frame people want bugs to stay ingame and i don’t care if they want bugs to stay ingame. There are very little games that proud themselfs for keeping bugs in the game. There are some YT vids about some cases that make sense. So after all no matter how long or little people want to keep bugs ingame people want to keep bugs ingame and this is unreasonable and not smart to do from my decade long experience and point of view.
Because if person A says something completly opposing to a healthy working like intended game and wants it to stay in a messed up place that makes it even more unbalanced or makes the game look like the devs were never intrested in balance when they surely were the whole oppinion is pointless to me. Why should anyone leave a bug in a product that make it look like a joke when they can remove it? Other games do it all the time. That’s why it is pointless to discuss it even because it’s a normal thing in the industry that happens for decades and it’s a good thing bugs are fixed.
Because under almost no condition what so ever it’s a good thing and an industry standard to leave a game in a buged state. Every Hack and Slash game in every season when there were problems fixed bugs and even stuff that were no bugs and the world still keeps spinning. That’s why I don’t need a condition to it because in 99% of all cases it’s a job well done to fix a bug instead of leaving it ingame.
If we want to put on a condition okay here we go. In LE we hat completely busted and over the top builds that were so broken I would say they were untested and just thrown out in the world if I didn’t knew better. People who want to keep the bugs ingame are simply bugabusers to me who had their powertrip cut short because something that was obviously broken was unusable anymore. Sure there might be some completely new players to LE who might have thought having 100k+ ward is normal but I think this is the minority.
I don’t just repeat myself it’s up there and why it’s not a consideration for me no matter how it’s put for the simple reason that buged games are in almost all cases worse games then they could be and should be fixed asap and under all circumstances. This is applyable to every product on earth and to the gaming industry for decades. If this is stupid to you be my guest stupid things are mostly kind of fun ^^.
No it’s not the same.
That is the point, not everybody knows that there is a bug in the first place
But how does the user know that there is a bug, when the bug is simply causing the skill to deal more damage or have more area then intended.
That is the kind of bug that is not causing things to not work, but make them work in unintended ways that are not apparent to the user, thus making it feel bad if from one patch to the other all of the sudden the build this user, that didn’t even know there was a bug will be affected.
That is why EHG did a poll about it and the community decided very clearly how EHG should handle these situations.
But that doesn’t change the fact that things like this should be discussed and not simply taking the authority and just fix them without asking anymore.
You said almost and in 99% of cases.
But this is the exact 1% of cases where things should be discussed at least, however the decision is made and even after the decision has been made discussions about this should not just be shut down.
To be clear I personally also think that bugs that are affecting builds performances should be fixed, even if it results in a build being nerfed.
But that doesn’t make me want to shut down the discussion about this kind of things.
People can still be upset about it and discuss this.
So what? If people don’t know or buguse isn’t the issue here. Keepiung bugs intentionaly in a game is. That’s not realy important for this topic because I simply say all bugs should be fixed asap and as soon as they are known. Leaving bugs in a game isn’t a good thing and looks to me like the devs are unable to fix said bug for whatever reason.
If the user knows it or not isn’t the topic. Fixing bugs is. An example: I played Holy Hands Pala and enjoyed it a lot and felt far to powerfull so I thought “Is this for real?”. I was completely lazy so I googled it and found out in less then a min that some interactions with HH are iffy and most likely buged so I stoped playing the toon untill further notice.
So I could’ve kept playing or stopped and it’s completely useless to the matter at hand: Keeping bugs intentionaly in the game. Afaik LE has no bug abuse punishment in the ToS and I don’t want to reread it. That in mind it is completely useless to discuss the knowledge of a bug ingame when I say “Fix all bugs asap!” vs somone saying “Keep bugs ingame for whatever timeframe!”.
Translate both fiewpoints to real life and you’ll most likely see that you want “bugs” fixed asap in almost every case. Same goes for the gaming industry for dedaceds with so little exeptions where bugs kept ingame because they were fun and the community loved them.
Then again having completely dominanting numbers over every other build isn’t fun or something I love it’s just unblanced in the best case and bugged in the worst. If it’s buged fix it.
So what? People now could get angry and say “How dare you fix the bug that made my toon better then it could’ve ever been! Now I can’t play the game!”. That’s a laughing matter to me because if people can only play games when they are bugged go play offline and use whatever means to have fun.
Again this is completely normal thing to do. People should be happy how open EHG is about it and praise them when they even announce what skills are problematic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuG8NUxhrko For example shows some random stuff that happens in a game that is considered fun or a minor glitch that could stay there because it’s good for a laugh. Look at Bethesda games and all the glitches that are in their games for years. Somep eople on their fanbase even want these glitches to stay in game for whatever reason.
This was discussed and woted at and finalized and thanks to EHG we know they will fix bugs because the community voted so.
What else needs there to be discussed? You can discuss that we need another poll because after we’ve seen how EHG handles this kind of stuff is disgusting. That’s a logic I can understand and i would simply vote again like I did the last time. If for whatever reason EHG descides to leave bugs in the game I take my leave and never touch any product of EHG ever again because that’s my choice.
To me personaly 1 of whatever much people in here said “I’m done with this because of that statement”. Guess what… everyone else could’ve happiely discussed on about it. No we have a dialog for no reason at all and the discussion about the topic stoped when I said.
It’s my oppinion my answer to the part i quoted up there that is silly from my point of view. To me everything that should be kept like it is because someone want’s a bug to sty in the game is completely wrong to me. I can’t even understand peoples mental gymnastics that gets them to the point to say something like this.
People should simply get over it that there are people in the completely opposite corner who say “HELL NO!” and go on with their day because that’s completely normal. I’m not mad or worked up or whatever I’m just suprised anyone want’s that and I wrote down my oppinion about it that the little thing I quoted is enough to say this is pointless to me. That’s not the end of the world in my book but something that happens every day for millions of times.
I was already done and gone untill someone added me here so keep discussing the matter and don’t tag me because I’m against it and I’ll be always against it so my contribution to the discussion is already overdone ^^.
I am saying that they are still responcible for the consequences of their actions. They would be responsible had they done something without asking us, they are responcible for doing things after asking us. The community is not infallible, what it suggests may not be correct, and EHG is not infallible either.
Also polls are infamous for not being completely reliable for understanding opinions due to quirks of human psychology when answering polls, for example people actually hate it when their build gets nerfed even if it was OP before the nerf - but you would not find this from the poll, because the poll is about what should be done (in theory) rather than what the player would want to actually happen (in practice). It also turned the community against itself as it was mostly hardline “no you do not nerf mid season ever” vs hardline “you must nerf immediatly”
I think that every nerf of that nature should come with a flat statistical buff to compensate
At least if done mid season, I despise mid season nerfs.
It didn’t actually. The poll actually had nuances:
-Nerf greatly overperforming skill due to bugs
-Nerf mildly overperforming skill due to bugs
-Nerf greatly overperforming skill not due to bugs
-Nerf mildly overperforming skill not due to bugs.
The first one had a very clear result by the community and they acted accordingly. The other weren’t as clear and they decided no to act on those.
This is like having a poll about returning a lost wallet and not keeping the money. Most people would vote yes, but some would hate it when it happens to them and they’d be forced to return the money.
That’s not a problem with the poll. The answer is clear. The problem is that some people would rather rules not apply to them.
As applies to LE, everyone would agree that bugs should be fixed even if they result in nerfs. It’s just that bug abusers would like to continue abusing them.
5 Likes
I disagree - because I personally do not care if the build is stronger due to faulty calculations or stronger just because of higher number, I do not like the idea of distinguishing between a sufficiently advanced bug and a feature because a lot of the time you cannot actually tell.
Had this been questions relating to a pvp game I would agreed to nerfs in all cases, but this is a seasonal pve game, where players put a large amount of time into their build, to suddenly lose half or more of their dps mid season has a high chance to invalidate the time spent on that build - and I am not even talking about players intentionally exploiting a bug, I am talking about players who just ran for example falcon dive bomb because falconer just came out and they liked the skill.
I am fine with nerfs at season start and bugfixes at start, I am fine with bugfixing an OP build for PERFORMANCE REASONS(but only if you buff the damage some other way to compensate). But I despise mid season nerfs
There’s no pvp (yet) but there are leaderboards, so balancing is still important.
Besides, if there is no balance, like we currently have with 2 classes completely dominating endgame (even after the mid-cycle nerfs), then there are a lot of people that leave because of that as well.
The issue isn’t doing 500c when everyone else is doing 300c. Vastly overperforming means that builds are doing 2k+ when no build should even be doing 1k.
So even if your build is nerfed, you won’t be left with something that now can’t even do 100c or bosses. You’re still left with a build that is stronger than the others, just not by a ridiculous amount.
As can be seen, again, by the fact that the bugs were fixed and yet those classes are still dominating.
2 Likes
I would be on board with that. Only a tiny percentage of people that play ever post. People on the forums complaining are not your core player base. They’re a small, very loud, subsection of the population that wouldn’t come back if you meet their demands anyway. The majority of people online just play the game.
LE has between 3-12k players according to steam charts? Yet only a handful of topics in the general forum were updated from yesterday to today. No one cares. Forums have become an avenue for people to vent. EHG should focus on doing what they believe best to make a successful game. If they see a post that could help in that regard, great, but a lot of it’s just pissed off players these days. It’s unfortunate.
To quote my friend, the people who don’t care about a build being stronger are usually the one’s playing those stronger builds. Not always true, but there it is. Everyone’s different, but it does matter to me. When my minion build was doing C400 content and the Wraithlord build with a helmet and a prayer was doing c1000-2000, what’s the point? It’s demoralizing. You need to be able to at least believe you can compete or it just sucks the fun out of it. When you group with builds that powerful and they’re just destroying entire screens, it makes me sit there and think why I’m even there. This guy obviously doesn’t need my help in the slightest lol. Reckon that’s how Inarius felt around us peasants :).
I am the type that prefers buffs over nerfs. I see minions only reaching C400 and do not see wraithlord itself as the problem - but all the other minion trees being weak, especially abomination.
I agree that it has to be nerfed HARD(as it isn’t broken statistically, but conceptually, as in the very idea of it is busted), but I disagree with nerfing during cycle.
Though wraithlord is an example of an item, instead of minion builds as a whole - I have less issue with an item being nerfed than with a skill being nerfed mid league.
I would also like buffs and never liked the playstyle of Wraithlord personally. I actually really enjoyed the Abom build that’s like a discount One-Punch Man. I actually went back and forth quite a bit with this fella in the build comments to tweak it. I love minions, but my friends do not as they’re all over the screen when they play.
Abom can do high corruption too, the reason no one plays it isnt because its weak, its just boring and slow.
Wraithlord/Abom are basically exactly the same in concept, you have one big unkillable minion that does obscene damage. The reason wraithlord has made it to the mainstream is because unlike abom, it does not really sacrifice clear speed. it has auto targeting ranged beams and while its probably less clear then something like solo ice mage aka Fred, its damage potential is tenfold fred with only like 30% less clear.
For the most part, you can replace any fred/abom/wraithlord build with each other with some slight tweaks, but they all rely on similar mechanics of generally LL ward for defense and the classic solo shade buffing mechanics.
Wouldn’t that mean it’s clear is up to 7x Fred? Depending on how much overkill you have.
Not necessarily. Not having tried either, you could have fred with big AoEs and Wraithlord not having AoE or having smaller ones. Or different movespeeds/mana management in the builds.
What you can take from his statement is that Wraithlord should be clearly superior against bosses, since they do deal higher damage.