No, it’s your mental gymnastics that justify a mandatory payment as ‘free’ because you get something in return, which is a normal trade.
Why would I spent 30 later?
No basis for that.
How about paying ‘0’ later… since it’s F2P?
But what about… not buying those item? That’s the point.
Nah, Horus doesn’t. Actually this time you do.
When my friend starts playing today he pays the access price.
When my friend starts playing after release he pays… nada… nil… zero… nothing.
That’s it.
What he pays beyond that mandatory amount is another topic entirely.
1 Like
Still no. Currently, if you want to play PoE 2 you need to either buy a supporter pack that contains a key or have spent several hundred USD on supporter packs in the past. When PoE 2 leaves EA, you won’t need to buy a supporter pack that contains a key (assuming it’ll be like PoE 1 in this regard). Will it be possible to play #2 without paying anything (f2p), yes, will it be a good idea/enjoyable experience? Not sure, will the benefits of paid stash tabs for #2 be as significant as they are for #1 (given the trillions of different shards)? I don’t know.
Just because a bar that requires payment to enter gives you a voucher for a free drink doesn’t mean you don’t pay for entry. If you don’t have any cash, you’re not coming in. Same with PoE 2, if you haven’t paid GGG enough, you’re not playing PoE 2.
Did you give them any money? Yes or no.
It isn’t now, but it will be in the future.
2 Likes
To play the game.
This question makes me believe you don’t know what free 2 play games are or the cost to play them.
This isn’t a point. You are trying to use some mental gymnastics here. If you want to play PoE you are going to buy the basic items you need to play the game. Which is a better monetization model than Last Epoch and EHG had.
No your friend who starts playing today gets currency tab, premium tab to trade etc.
Your friend who starts playing after release has to buy currency tab, premium tab to trade etc. (unless you think this is realistically optional to have a basic enjoyable experience which it isn’t)
Again it’s the same price. You are getting the same which is why PoE 2 early access had millions of players and is thee most successful ARPG on the market right now.
I can play it with ‘0’ too though since it’s Free 2 Play.
So why?
‘0’, hence free. Otherwise it would be ‘Pay 2 Play’, hence subscription or shelf-price.
Just because many (not all) F2P games have substantial amounts of functional payments doesn’t mean the model itself mandates it.
Not to speak that for example currently you can play PoE 2 absolutely without any paid tabs and still do fine.
Which mental gymnastics? Am I forced at gunpoint to pay GGG the money when it’s F2P? No? Then it’s free unless you personally decide for it not to be.
Also by the way… why would I be a single cent when I’ve for example played PoE 1 for a while and already got tabs there?
Tell me a single reason to spend a single cent when I already have done it for PoE 1. So no… PoE 2 costs then nothing.
No, he has to exchange the points from the pack for that, he doesn’t ‘get it’. First off.
Well, my friend played PoE 1 already, he has that.
So? Which cost again?
You aren’t playing PoE 2 latter if you don’t have the cash to buy a premium tab to trade on the auction house, or a currency tab etc. Which is what you get for free now when you have early access.
You are spending the same amount. Again GGG is really smart and their microtransaction model is extremely successful and if EHG had it they likely wouldn’t be in this pay 2 win class situation with Krafton.
Let me ask you a question did GGG make you just pay only for early access? Nope they sure didn’t.
Yes I gave them the same amount of money I would after the game fully launches. I’m not paying anything EXTRA for early access which was a really smart move by GGG and why millions signed up for PoE 2 EA.
The Data and the facts don’t lie.
It is free 2 play now because GGG made it free 2 play with how they marketed early access, as a player you aren’t spending any additional money for early access. Which is why PoE 2 became the biggest ARPG in the market now taking it over.
Why not?
Are we physically hindered to do that?
Just because it’s not as enjoyable doesn’t mean people don’t do it.
Sorry… but that’s a factually wrong statement.
Free 2 Play is a payment model, this states no entry fee of any kind and monetization through means in-game, form nondescriptive.
This isn’t upheld. So factually wrong.
Ahh now this is a completely separate topic. The cost of free 2 play games.
You can’t run a business if it was truly free 2 play there has to be a basic cost that everyone gets. That’s how free 2 play games are so profitable and make millions.
Enjoyable and required are 2 completely different words.
I am required to have a premium stash tab to list items for trade in PoE 2. In an ARPG trading is a basic feature. Want to list an item for trade you buy that stash tab. Again a smart model for microtransactions and why free 2 play games make money.
Almost no one is playing PoE free 2 play because you are required to have enough space for currency, crafting and trading. Basic constructs of an ARPG. Again we are getting off topic here and into the cost of free 2 play games. Nothing is ever truly free.
You basically contradict all your arguments with this statement. I agree with you Free 2 play is a payment model. PoE 2 is a free 2 play game. What you are getting in early access right now is the same cost in the free 2 play payment model latter. (you are paying the same).
Thanks for proving my point.
On a side note I want to reiterate I wish EHG and Last Epoch were smart with their microtransactions like GGG is with PoE because then Last Epoch wouldn’t be in this pay 2 win mess.
I’ll take PoE 2 free 2 play payment model over Last Epoch’s new Pay 2 Win model everyday and twice on Sunday. Which is why the gaming community is so heated right now.
Yep, and we’re talking about the required part. The mandatory aspect.
That’s the whole discussion.
You’re not describing ‘Free 2 play’ in your whole argumentation line.
Games like Fortnite, Apex Legends, League of Legends are also Free 2 Play but offer not a single functional thing to buy. They’re solely based on vanity items.
So yes, they’re for example ‘100% free’. You as a customer choose if you wanna pay or not. Vanity items alone are simply that profitable that it works nonetheless.
Now… if we move the topic back to PoE 2 as a payment model then we got currently a Pay 2 Play game based on shelf-price with functional payments. Which is already obviously worse for the customer. It still does absolutely work though, you’re told what to expect beforehand, it’s ‘out there’ in knowledge and also easily visible. And to mention that there was an option for free access via being a big spender in PoE 1, which is the sole exception.
In the future your argument about it being Free 2 Play is true. Not yet though.
Comparatively if we now look at LE then it’s also a Pay 2 Play game. This one is coming expected without functional payments. Not anymore though… they moved that goalpost and it’s a massive one to move. There is also no ‘waiting time’ for it to become Free 2 Play. And the information also wasn’t conveyed up-front for customers despite having already executed a payment. Hence this is for the customer the worst option available.
But the argumentation about PoE 2 is absolute nonsense sadly. It’s currently Pay 2 Play.
2 Likes
This is what I said, you can play it, but the experience may well suck because of the lack of tabs. But you can play it.
Yes, yes they did. When it was all announced I checked how much I’d spent & whether I’d qualify for a free key. I hadn’t spent enough (as I’ve previously mentioned before) & the cheapest option was to get the PoE 2 supporter pack because that gave a key.
Now, given I’m not a particularly big MTX spender, all of those points I’ve accumulated (& it’s not many TBH) don’t have a particularly high value to me. So yes, the key was the primary reason for buying the pack so I spent ~$30 on a key for PoE 2. I acknowledge that I also got some mtx & some points, but as said before, I’m not too fussed about that.
And that’s the answer to whether it’s f2p at the moment. This is purely a yes/no question.
Now, I agree with you, GGG’s pricing strategy is very smart. They gave a whole bunch of keys to people who have historically given them a shitton of cash (builds good will with the community), generates a load of hype (as if it needed any more) & also offered a not-particularly-expensive way to buy in.
But if you didn’t get a free key, you still need to buy in.
I’d even agree that PoE 1/2 aren’t actually f2p anymore, they’re “freemium”, you can technically play them for free but the friction is so high that you get a massive benefit for buying a few stash tabs (which then emotionally opens the door to buying more).
But fundamentally, if you don’t give them cash, you’re not playing PoE 2 now.
This is true, but if you don’t pay to get access to the EA now, you’re not getting access.
Yup.
1 Like
Yep, that describes PoE 1/2 the best I would say.
Depending on the former state of how much you spend in PoE 1 though we could argue that PoE 2 for you as an individual is then F2P instead of freemium. Because you already got everything and hence don’t have any need to spend money anmore to get rid of the friction.
No they didn’t just make you pay for early access. You keep mentioning PoE 1 and what you spent there which is irrelevant. Since you paid for PoE 2 you got a free voucher to spend 300 points. (the cost of early access)
So early access cost nothing since you got 300 points as well. Now when PoE 2 launches you don’t have to buy 300 points to get the things you need you already have them.
So you aren’t paying ANYTHING EXTRA now for PoE 2 early access. You are spending the same amount now as you would latter.
Yes it is free 2 play at this current moment via the point value you can spend at anytime.
Agree it makes me want to spend with them because it’s a good product and feel the value in what I am getting.
Ehh when something is free 2 play I expect freemium and expect to spend money on something. They are one in the same. Free 2 play games are designed in a way where you want to spend money, it’s a freemium game.
Freemium aka free 2 play is still better than Pay 2 win which LE is becoming pay 2 win.
When you get early access though you are rewarded with the total value of early access in points to spend. The total amount you would spend latter when the game is free. So you aren’t paying anything extra for early access so the game is still free 2 play.
When you buy early access you get to choose what stash tabs you want, some cosmetics etc all things you would buy when the game is free. Again it was smart for GGG to do this and why early access became a monster in the ARPG genre and took over. GGG wanted PoE 2 to remain free 2 play during early access and they achieved that with this format. (Jonathan did explain this in the trailer for early access which everyone cheered and why they got 1 million orders in a day)
As a customer and player of PoE 2 I am not spending any extra money for early access it’s free 2 play for me. When I tell people about PoE 2 early access they understand easily how it’s free 2 play. The LE forums though it’s always amusing.
Ok, so if I create a new steam account, I can access the EA without having to spend any money?
No, it’s one of the ways you could get access to the PoE 2 EA.
Yes, this is exactly what I/we’ve been saying. Pay for a PoE 2 supporter pack, get a key. Also get some points & some MTX.
This is the bit that’s a bit more judgemental. Yes, you spend $30, you get 300 points (valued at $1 per point from the other packs where you only get points), a key & some mtx. However, you can’t get those mtx & key without buying the pack, so while 300 points would cost you $30 if bought by themselves, the value of the points is actually discounted since you get some other things of value (key & mtx) as well.
No, if I wanted to go all accountant on you (which is unlikely to end well but fuckit I didn’t spend several years doing exams for nothing you know!!), this is how goodwill works in an acquisition. You buy a company with assets valued at X & you pay Y for it. If Y>X, the difference is the value of the goodwill (the the assets are valued at 100 & you pay 1,000, you have a goodwill value of 900). If X>Y (as in the case here) that’s called negative goodwill or a bargain purchase & you generally take that upside & recognise it immediately (under IFRS, or defer it & recognise it over some years under UK GAAP FRS 102), so if the assets were valued at 1,000 & you only paid 100 for it, you generally take the upside of 900 into the P&L and it’s bonuses & yachts all round!!
No, because you have to put $30 down for access. That you get $30-worth of stuff back is a separate kettle of fish.
Absolutely, you feel better so you’re more likely to open your wallet.
Again, absolutely. You know the free-experience is going to be worse than the paid-experience.
1 Like
They were never really free. Without stash tabs, you had the shareware version (for those old enough to remember what shareware was) that was barely playable once you reached maps.
I had multiple tabs just for currency…
It’s not, that’s why early access had millions of players sign up. People said oh if I buy early access I get that amount I would of spent when the game launches. Sign me up!!
When Jonathon made the announcement they wanted PoE 2 early access to be free 2 play so they rewarded everyone with it’s value so they can KEEP THAT PROMISE.
This was well received obviously because we still get PoE 2 early access free 2 play.
Yes I had no problem buying early access and testing it because it was free 2 play since I was rewarded with it’s value. This approach has also caused me to spend even more money because I’m happy and enjoy what I’m spending on.
You know what I don’t want to spend money on? LE Pardox classes. I’m really not into pay 2 win.
Usually isn’t at least not anymore. PoE really opened up the entire free 2 play market with it’s business model. You see the “Paid experience” is now “Paid to win” so in a world where it’s freemium or pay 2 win. Think everyone will take freemium. At least freemium is the most honest and best system to survive.
Many “paid experience” games like WoW are now pay 2 win. Not only do you have to buy the game, you have to pay for a sub. Then they also have pay 2 win in the form of currency, level boost etc. So now there is only pay 2 win vs freemium.
Which makes it free 2 play. You aren’t spending anything extra are you. It’s not like they are charging you for early access only. They could of done that but then everyone would of rioted and GGG would have gone back on their promise to always have PoE as a free 2 play game.
Which is why they give you the value of early access in points so you aren’t paying for early access. Everyone cheered and PoE 2 became #1 in the ARPG market due to their smart strategy and staying true to their players.
May I invite you for dinner? It’s free-2-eat. You just pay me $30 and you get a $30 meal in return. That’s free, right?
1 Like
This is the same as PoE 2 early access vs PoE 2 full launch. It’s the same cost. So I have no problem with that. I’m getting my value out of it. We can debate wording all day.
I bought early access if my friend waits till launch they are spending the same. It’s the same now vs latter. It’s the same meal and value. So at the end of the day GGG kept their promise of PoE 2 early access being free 2 play and millions of players are enjoying early access because of it.
It is, the moment you get something in addition to the 300 points, the valuation of those points is reduced. If you pay $30 & get 300 points and $30 worth of armour mtx, are you getting the points for free, the mtx for free, both for a 50% discount or somewhere in-between?
Exactly, they buy early access.
Yeah, but if your friend already has a bunch of stash tabs for PoE 1, they wouldn’t need to buy a pack when the game launches to get the convenience of the tabs so he would actually be getting it for free (as in not paying any money).
Do I also get to keep the $30 wine glass?
Or they are getting early access for free and paying for 300 points. Which is what someone does after launch when the game is free 2 play. So it’s the same thing 
Jonathan wanted to keep his promise to the fans of PoE 2 always being free 2 play and by all intents and purposes he did and that’s why GGG did it. Everyone is pretty satisfied in the PoE community about it which right now you can’t say the same for the LE community.
With that being said, I do hope EHG can come up with a better plan and put out the fires they created recently. It’s a tall task though. Most people won’t support a pay 2 win class/system structure.