Yeah, if they managed to balance the paid class well (personally I’m not holding much hope for that) & ideally are also able to balance the rest of the classes to a reasonably comparable level then it won’t be pay to win since the paid class would be of comparable power to the pre-existing classes.
This is mostly irrelevant to the consumer. It doesn’t matter if they are balanced. People don’t want a pay wall locking content. These new classes also open up new systems. aka content. Which means it’s pay 2 win.
Want to explore the new systems? You gotta pay for them. It’s a tough pill to swallow and why everyone is up in arms. I can swallow paying for expansions, or even paying for stash tabs, premium tabs etc. I rather pay 100 bucks for those things. I’m not paying 20 bucks for pay 2 win. (if that is the prices who knows) This is what the majority is thinking.
It’s not the amount, it’s not balance. It’s the way EHG implemented the monetization that isn’t acceptable. PoE did it right and rather freemium over pay 2 win.
If history has taught us anything, sadly this won’t work out for LE. People aren’t going to buy it.
Which is why we have a bunch of people loosing their shit over paid expansion & a bunch of people (presumably different people, maybe not) loosing their shit over free expansion & paid class.
That doesn’t logically follow though. Pay 2 win is a separate concept to content (& I do personally count a class as content). If the new class was objectively worse over all metrics, it’d still be pay to play but it wouldn’t be pay to win.
If they’re thinking that it’s likely because they don’t think EHG can balance the new class well enough & it’ll probably end up being OP/more effective. Or they think it’ll be OP/more effective in order to drive sales rather than “new class=new systems=pay 2 win”.
Yeah, probably.
Note to myself: Only provide paper cups.
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There isn’t a bunch of people complaining about paid expansions. lets be honest probably less than 1-2% of any community. Expansions aren’t a pay wall it’s the standard of gaming. 99% of gamers will never have an issue with buying an expansion. It should be expected and is the best format. (You know what you are paying for)
It’s because one is acceptable standard and one isn’t. One is paid to win and one isn’t. Buying a game or it’s expansions you are buying the content in it’s entirety. Having open ended pay 2 win classes and systems isn’t.
This is why long time content creators who build their career on Last Epoch have already stepped away and rebranded like Dread. He’s got 5,000 hours in LE and his channel icon was of LE. He made his last LE video because of the road LE is going down isn’t acceptable.
The community is on fire and it’s made content creators step away because who wants to make a build guide for an angry mob that is the LE community. With that being said the LE community have every right to be furious.
I see what you are trying to say but I don’t think you are being honest if you believe that will happen. Or EHG/Krafton will allow that to happen. They are going to make these new Classes and systems appealing because THEY HAVE TO MAKE 100 million dollars. Krafton has to take the unprofitable business model of LE and make it profitable. At any cost.
That means pay 2 win classes and systems any time they need a boost in their quarterly reports. You know it, I know it, the LE community knows it. So the people who aren’t mad are disappointed. No one is happy because we know this doesn’t have a happy ending.
That’s all which is needed.
Not F2P hence.
That’s the decider.
You have to do it or cannot use the product, end of line.
What?
That’s backwards.
You got access and 300 points. Premium currency has no monetary value. I know that sounds ‘odd’ directly but it’s true. You can acquire it… but you cannot get rid of it. It is a one-way street.
Your argument would uphold if you have to pay for the access… get those 300 points and then can retract those 300 points to be left with the access alone.
But… you cannot do that.
extra
But you need to pay.
It’s not about your expectation though but the official description.
And when you buy a supporter pack you suddenly create value out of thin air because you get points and Vanity items commonly?
That’s not how it goes. One-way street again.
Not quite, shareware is still around actually.
Many companies actually still use shareware, which is the terminology of a product which is free but only based on a specific timeframe, continued use to be paid.
This means ‘try 30 days for free’ is a shareware offer as example.
If something is ‘comfortable’ or not is of no relevance to the terminology there. That’s why to distinct it the term ‘freemium’ came up to describe games which are free but which such severe downsides that you basically ‘have’ to pay the fee to get the proper experience.
What has one to do with the other?
The major reason for it is that it was a side-effect for many by buying supporter packs for PoE 1. Also that there’s a fallback option if PoE 2 doesn’t pan out and bringing quite a few people to start off PoE 1 ultimately.
It’s a genius marketing move which isn’t done too often, commonly seen in tourism-based offers though. The software sector just hasn’t tapped into this several decade old system yet and GGG is finally picking it up, far overdue. ‘Double value’ without costs for a company, ensuring to be superior to competition inherently.
That’s why so many bought into it.
You still buy access though. Without payment no access, end of line still. No argumentation changes that.
If a monetary transfer of any kind is necessary to get access then it’s not F2P, which is the core rule to be that payment model.
You can see it as having the same access value… but it’s still not the same model.
So… lets imagine another situation, a real life one.
There’s clubs… commonly in a club you’re expected to buy drinks, right? That’s their primary income.
Many clubs are free to move in but others ask for a entrance fee.
Now… there exists a deal to ‘sweeten’ the hindrance of customer quantity with a entrance fee. That’s there so you guarantee income after all.
And that’s providing a voucher or card with a value on it for drinks, at the same value as the entry-fee was.
Now the reality check here:
If you and a friend go to a free club to have a fun time with the music and simply the environment… but your friend has exactly ‘0’ on his account and in his wallet, can he get the experience?
Yes.,
Now, if you do the same with a club that has a entrance-fee and provides the full value in drink-vouchers. Can you both get the experience?
No.
Here you got your difference, that’s it.
The only people which got it F2P are those which have formerly paid a substantial amount of money. That’s called a freebie.
Also as a follow-up for PoE:
If 30$ provide 300 points then those points are valued at 10 points per 1$, right?
Now we got an issue though… we got supporter packs which offer points and vanity items.
So… are the points still worth 1$ for 10 points?
We can argue ‘no’ as the exchange value now is vanity item + points. So now your 300 points are actually suddenly a value of 20 points for 1$.
The vanity items are a incentive, but to be fully transparent here… companies nowadays base their prices not on the basis but on expected set prices for a sale.
What does that mean?
That buying points alone is a detriment in value actually.
In the same direction then we can decide that the PoE 3 access key falls into the same category. We can argue it’s not valued at 30$ but also has points attached which would be worth 30$.
Since commonly points at supporter packs are valued at half what they would normally be valued when seen in conjunction with vanity items we now can say that the PoE 2 key actually costs 15$ and the points provided make 15$.
Still not free hence.
Umh… what?
You realize that the business model was around before PoE already? PoE is just one example of many where it works, that’s it.
They really didn’t do anything groundbreaking. The only thing provided which wasn’t common is supporter packs with included full-scale point value. Reverse pricing simply.
Also:
What do comparisons with other products have to do with the base premise?
Just because another product does or does not do something makes no difference for the core situation.
It just puts different value in relation to competing products, that’s it.
Factually false still.
Sure. Since it’s ‘free’ I’ll gladly provide you the meal I cook for 10€ and the wine-glass I bought for 5$ to have a proper markup.
But either/or for you is ‘free’ after all… you can decide if the glass is not worthless or the meal… but you pay full price for one, right? 
The bunch for the class is substantially bigger as it’s a even bigger breach then the first solutions.
My expectation is still that it’s a interesting PR move and EHG will rescind the paid class entirely over time, provide the first expansion freely to existing players and have all follow-up ones - expected yearly I imagine - to be paid for.
This way people are extremely pissed off first and then with the rescinding EHG turns into the ‘good guys’ for doing that when the expansion itself alone would’ve been seen as a bad move. Now everyone being understanding.
Psychological manipulation at the peak, commonly seen tactics in the modern software world sadly.
There are two things that have kept me from getting into the POE2 EA.
- The endgame doesn’t look fun
- I don’t want to do the entire campaign over and over again on new chars. I’d rather wait for launch and experience for the first time as well
You aren’t paying for anything now that you won’t pay for latter. So there is no extra cost. Jonathan and GGG kept their promise for PoE 2 early access to be free 2 play by doing this.
If you disagree that is fine. You just aren’t going to get many people to agree with you. PoE 2 early access had millions sign up and was a massive success because of it’s free 2 play model.
I believe you are held up on wordage instead of reality. I play PoE 2 early access free 2 play just like the other millions of players that got it. When I explain to people it’s free 2 play they understand and say that’s a really good deal and get early access too. Since it’s no extra cost.
PoE 1 isn’t a popular mainstream game. It has a niche gaming audience. It was a overly complicated and convoluted game which kept it from mainstream and popularity. Most people who play PoE 2 won’t play PoE 1. They are vastly different games and for different audiences.
PoE 1 had massive issues that couldn’t be fixed and why GGG decided to create an entirely different game built for a different audience. Like most I waited for PoE 2 to come out because I knew GGG was addressing the issues PoE 1 had and was making a different game.
PoE 2 is the mainstream #1 ARPG in the space due to bringing a next gen ARPG with a free 2 play model to the genre.
There were people who played basketball before Michael Jordan but he changed the league forever. He brought in the money and changed the business model. PoE played a huge role in the free 2 play model and it’s standards.
You just aren’t going to get many people to agree with you. The GGG Devs won’t agree with you either. Promises made and promises kept. They promised you would never have to pay to play PoE and they delivered. Maybe you don’t see it that way. Doesn’t change the fact that is how it’s viewed.
Millions of people agree that PoE 2 is free 2 play. I can’t wait till next season. Gonna be fun.
Well that is what they are mostly working on next season. It was improved last season but the big update is next. I think the end game in PoE 2 is better than LE currently.
I would say that’s fair. However I think doing the campaign over and over again on new characters is the best part of the gaming experience. Especially after the campaign update last season. It was really well done now that you don’t repeat act 1-3.
Also next season they are adding in another way to ascend. The campaign is probably one of the best play throughs in the ARPG genre. It’s what I’m looking forward to most next season as I get into the new end game.
There were a bunch in the thread where they announced the expansion & the PS5 version. The amount of people on forums are a small fraction of the community & the amount that are complaining about a paid class are also relatively small, though likely more than complained about the possibility of a paid expansion.
It is if you have to pay for them. Just ask Stellaris players.
Absolutely.
And this is the genius of their marketing, or possibly it says things about the understanding of modern gamers, that you sincerely believe this & can’t not conflate the concept of paying for access now and getting other stuff as well. Your premise only works if the key has no value & that means the access has no value. If you value the access now then the key has value which means that some of the cost of the pack is attributed to it.
Millions of people think the Earth is flat, popularity doesn’t make a concept correct.
Good!
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And the points have no value for people who already have all the stash tabs and character slots they need, or for people who buy the EA supporter pack to try PoE 2 and dislike it so much they never use them.
As Jean Cocteau said:
“Don’t confuse the truth with the opinion of the majority.”
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I haven’t played POE1 in years due to boredom with the campaign. The one design philosophy they have that I despise is forcing the campaign.
Well that’s a really old game and probably similar to do the D2 campaign where you want to rush through it and start playing. Which isn’t very good.
I believe the campaign in a modern game should be the bulk or progression. It should be the exciting part of creating a character and overall game experience. Obviously 10+ year old games have boring themed campaigns with no depth and lack luster replayability.
The core of a great ARPG is the campaign and it’s progression. PoE 2 really started to nail that last season. Many wow moments where you just stop and say this is really cool. Where time just flies by because of how immersive the campaign journey is. So if you didn’t experience that then this upcoming season you should now give it a try.
I do hope at some point an ARPG ties the campaign better into the end game (PoE 2 could be close) where it serves more of an end game function. I think if you want to skip the campaign then the game isn’t very good. You shouldn’t want to skip the best core part of the gaming experience and progression where you get immersed into the game.
In order for an ARPG to be great when you finish the campaign the thought instantly should be I can’t wait to do that again on another character or with a different build. PoE 2 should be there by time it is finished and launches.
I am skeptical that POE2 will be fun to rerun on every character. But I can’t judge it until I see it. POE2 will obviously put most end game progression post campaign right? If so, people will still want to rush through the campaign after doing it enough times.
Then the progression and design is bad if that happens.
When was the last time you played? Last season was a huge emphasis on the campaign finally and adding additional acts, progression and story.
I’m getting out of the campaign now at 65-70 level. I wouldn’t mind getting out of the campaign at 75-80 level. Again a really we done campaign should be the core progression of the game as you build your character and immerse yourself into the game. (one reason why PoE 2 has become so popular and mainstream)
I think a sign of rushing the campaign or wanting to skip it means the game as a whole failed in it’s progression and journey/story. PoE 2 last season already started to blend the campaign into end game. Where more progression was in the campaign and less in early maps which I find way more enjoyable and less tedious.
To highlight on this further where I said above then the progression and design were bad if this happens. This did happen in Season 2 when they made many mistakes on balance, loot and progression. So the campaign felt like a slog and you could have bad RNG and overall bad time.
They fixed all these issue latter that season and then made the massive improvements in Season 3 with additional acts and progression. Now the campaign is shaping up to be one of the best playthroughs of any ARPG.
If the thought after finishing the campaign isn’t I can’t wait to do that again, it’s clearly a design issues that needs to be fixed.
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