But if given a choice between a expansion and a DLC character then many choose to pick the expansion simply.
Shouldn’t be either.
And my notion there? I think EHG provided the awful information this way to reduce the impact when they ‘steer back’, basically turning it into a sort of ‘win’ for returning to the future expansions being paid and classes simply included there.
As for the 100€ price-point… sure, hyperbole likely… put also possible, wouldn’t be the first game going this route.
I mean… if we look at TL:I it was if I remember right 5€ per class… could be wrong there entirely though.
Sure, they changed it since then and now all is unlockable in-game (good move) but that was the former state.
And since you had I think 3 classes per league and their leagues are seasonal with a battle-pass (which includes em) it means 4 times 15€ which is 60€ per year solely for the classes. No MTX, no rolls for their god-awful gatcha crap. That’s already coming close.
The question is… how much per year is acceptable? I would argue that a yearly expansion for EHG is a viable methodology… which at a price-point of 30€ is doable for most and acceptable even… but then their supporter packs? They’ll just fizzle out completely, nobody wants to ‘support’ a company which ‘supports itself’ so to say. It’s the perception-wise purely a transactional aspect without any attachment in the form of ‘we wanna help’. Which is how the support-based games get such a great standing with customers after all.
Worst-case they could also keep the character unlocks + have future expansions be paid given the wording… that would means several classes a year which - if they follow the price-range of EHG - being each between 10-30€ per, plus a expansion which is to be expected to be around 30€ as well… and then we have a high chance to even go beyond 100€ easily.
In my language there’s a saying ‘Kleinvieh macht Mist’. Which translated means basically ‘small animals also do crap’. Low costs together piling up into big ones.
I think it’s a little early to get that worried. It’s basically a slippery slope argument, if this expansion makes money then they will make every season an expansion, if the dlc class makes money then they will make every class and mastery cost money. And if those are making money every time they release then we will release them faster and faster.
Slippery slope. A doesn’t necessarily become B which doesn’t necessarily become C, but if you want to look at the absolute worst possible outcome then you can basically say anything as long as you are willing to connect the dots.
I never tried TLI, the second it was a phone game turned PC I knew exactly what it would be so I’m not surprised I was right.
The thing is even with this worst case scenario, being just the worst of the worst, the answer then is to just stop supporting the company. If you are already in the once bitten twice shy with Krafton, then sure be leery about your purchases. Don’t buy day 1 and wait and see what other people say about it, or just cut your losses now and just walk away. If you won’t buy the expansions or dlc on principle alone then enjoy the ride until then with the carefree attitude knowing it’s finite. Hope for the best and expect her worst, and all that.
I’m firmly in the mindset of we will see what state the game is in on release before I make any decisions about it.
Edit: Oh and I’m 100% in the expansions and classes should come together in a package, it’s just way more appealing anyways, and maybe going forward they will. But this move was definitely to placate people not wanting to be charged for an expansion while finding a way to still make money to keep making more LE.
Expect the worst, hope for the best Makes life a lot easier.
As for every season… impossible, they cannot get the content together to not cause substantial damage in basically no time to themselves and go bancrupt because even white-knights wouldn’t be able to afford it. It’s always a balancing act to ensure just enough people stay to allow the whales to give up their money. Because too little people and even for them it becomes unfeasable.
Try it out. Gameplay wise it’s at the top-tier of the genre still, some UI issues but otherwise? It got good crafting, it got good mechanics, it got good bosses. The only downside is the presentation as the style is a bit overburdened in how asian-style games are done at times.
And obviously… but we also can speak out the fears and what we think is likely to happen. Which is supposed to sway people’s notion after all in a direction, being it more or less wary. That’s how the community perception at the grand stage is created after all. Stuff happenes… people talk about it… people get informed this way.
Yes I’m all for informed, as long as it isn’t alarmist. I like the facts right now, not what may or may not happen in a future that hasn’t even begun yet. Voiced concerns with the information we have right now is good, the direction you fear it will go in is fine, extremism in any form doesn’t really help the discussion regardless of what side you are on.
It’s a little rough waiting till next year for a new season honestly, which is the only next thing I can actually base anything off of. I was angry at the outset of an expansion announcement mostly cause I felt the game wasn’t polished enough to warrant it. Knowing it’s quite a ways off gives me cautious optimism, but can only wait and see what happens. Hoping for the best though .
I played through Torchlight 1 and 2 and liked them well enough. I might look into TLI.
All this doom & gloom is unnecessary and doesn’t lead anywhere.
If things turn out as bad as people think it will be we can talk again about it.
Liking TL1 and 2 doesn’t really matter though. TLI has nothing to do with what Torchlight was in the past. It just took the branding, but the product is something entirely different.
While it is not a bad game, it really is more for the eastern market. There are many monetization methods in that game that are not very much liked in the western market, which is a shame, because the foundation is a great game.
But TLI is essentially kinda what people think LE will become.
I presume you missed the dumpster fire that was the expansion announcement thread & a lot of posters (which TBF is a relatively small minority, but then so is the number of people posting about not wanting to pay for a class ) loosing their shit about the possiblity that the expansion was going to be paid.
But who’s going to be paying for it initially? The vast majority of people will be getting it for free, any cash paid will be in the long tail.
Would you rather things turn out badly & then get to bitch about it saying “I told you so” rather than give them feedback (which is effectively what all of this bitching is) so that they’ll be more well informed before things go badly?
If a developer ignores ‘bitching’ then they’re not fit to be in any form of customer relations, hence they should get the fuck out of especially live-service right away and not come back in that case because they picked the wrong sector to provide their product in.
Customer interaction - good and bad, nice and unreasonable - is a integral part of running any form of service.
Listen to unreasonable stuff is unreasonable no matter how you look at it.
At the end of the day it’s easy. If you messed up or act like you’ll mess up for sure and people get mad about it or frustrated or realy angry you know said people are at least emotionaly invested.
If you messed up or act like you’ll mess up and people praise you for whatever you’ll do because of… reasons… you either learn from it or keep on messing stuff up.
If people don’t care and the most you get back is “Who are you again?” before they move on you never touched them in any way shape or form and they don’t care.
If I was in EHG’s shoes I would’ve been a happy panda for years because the community speaks up freely and showes me when I mess up and what i could do better and I would happiely take any form of feedback even when I made somone so mad he calls me an incompetent idoit for not getting the obvious point.
Still I won’t listen to unreasonable stuff like making LE a third person souls like tomorrow because reasons.
GGG ignored the bitching feedback about their cancerous trade system for decades (until they didn’t & implemented 2 much improved ways to trade, one of which they could charge more £$€ for).
Every game costs money in some way. Free to play games all have angles that make money. POE2 cost me like 80 bucks to get into where its somewhat comfortable. Diablo games just have a flat cost with some optional MTX that you spend with plat that comes with the game price. Same with Grim Dawn or Titan Quest.
If anytime something sounds too good to be true like “everything free is forever!11!!1” then guess what, champs? It is too good to be true.
I’d rather voice my displeasure when they say they are going to do something rather than when they have already done it. Seems more constructive to me.
I don’t expect the game to be free forever, I would even consider buying an expansion if it was actually good. But to do this after neglecting their intended income stream is a shoddy move. They don’t get to cry poverty because they didn’t make anything decent to sell.
Anyone learning how to take emotionally based ‘feedback’ (which nigh every comment is) professionally learns how to simply pass over the stuff which has no value and actually reading solely the bits which relay information rather then emotion.
If you differ between them then it’s suddenly useful again. Now you only need to question if that’s the root cause or a symptom still… which you need to do anyway.
Emotion is a form of feedback as well.
But yeah, that’s not quite what you’re talking about… and obviously ‘out of the left field’ stuff is another topic in itself, more then enough coming from random thought directions… but that’s also a skill to differ between that and others. Commonly the showcase is ‘here is the problem’ and all other stuff is ‘maybe and maybe not’. Solutions fall in this category.
Yeah, and as you know I’ve talked about that as one of the biggest downsides from GGG as well, together with their overall former QoL stance which they’re overthrowing finally. The 1.0 success of LE was a wake-up call for them luckily… so something good came from the game for the future even should it now crash and burn… at least something.
But a lot of people here do assumptions and condemn what will happen after or they are saying they are quitting/stop supporting because EHG will do X Y or Z, which they havn’t done yet.
So instead they throw around some sensational things that they think will happen, which is not the case yet.
Staying true to the facts that we have right now and giving opinions and arguments about that is fine. That is very much what EHG always worked with and even changed some of their decisions based on such feedback.
But going down this sensational and populistic approach doesn’t help at all. It just leads to pitchfork arguments with no factual basis.
I can’t remember that off the top of my head but I’ll take yoru word for it.
While it’s good to learn from one’s own mistakes, it’s even better to learn from others, so I suspect GGG saw how MG functioned (or didn’t) in LE & how it could be better & saw that the game didn’t implode (I think? Maybe?).
Or when Chris “decided to seek opportunities outside of GGG” there was less of a hardened view on never having any form of asynchronous trading.
It is, but it’s also quite difficult to turn an emotional response into something actionable, other than “this person really does/does not like this thing”.
I think that’s because it’s hard to feel optimistic after having seen these kinds of things happen too many times.
I will argue against what they have said they will do now, but I am certain more shady things will follow once they go down this path. I hope I am wrong, I really do. But sadly that’s not what history shows, especially after corporate aquisitions.
If you are losing your shit about paid expansions you are low IQ, honestly you don’t understand anything and can’t be taken seriously. Sometimes people are dumb and their loud minority incorrect low IQ take should be disregarded. I think everyone can agree with that if you have the cognitive abilities.
Another problem EHG had is their lack of experience didn’t allow them to filter out these low IQ takes as just noise. These are very creative Devs but they (never have run a gaming company before and was a startup passion project.) When you run a company you need to filter out and disregard terrible low IQ background chatter from the community.
Which is why mistakes were made, overpromises happened which they should of never done because it was bad business. This is why now they did a deal with the Devil and the Devil won’t save LE.
Low IQ vocal minority of people can gripe all they want about a paid expansion but those people are just idiots and don’t understand gaming much less business. Their opinions should of been disregarded as vocal minority and can play another game and the MAJORITY wouldn’t be in this mess.
EHG has found out the hard way what happens when you allow the low IQ% of a community to be heard. You lose money, and are forced into no win situations which requires you to be bought out by Krafton to keep your dreams alive.
I’m not trying to be mean, it’s just how things work. EHG made the crucial mistake of trying to make everyone happy instead of just making who matters happy. Now Krafton owns LE and they aren’t going to listen to any of the community because they are here to make money.
Yep, that’s basically it. They always feared that the market would literally ‘implode in moments’ without the friction of the frustration of manual trading.
Didn’t happen and while some prices have substancially changed (as expected) the system is so much more comfortable that people are overall happier then ever.
I mean… as long as the actual game isn’t finished yet an expansion is simply premature, so the gripe is viable until then.
And afterwards it depends solely on the quality of the expansion.
And the gripe of being told ‘that wouldn’t happen’ and it now happening is also fair.
Sure… it’s expected to happen but doesn’t mean you can’t be miffed about it. The question is only for how many people it’ll be a dealbreaker… and even more so how many people fall off afterwards over the long-term from that decision. Because that it’ll be less users then it was before is kinda to be expected with that going forward until quality makes up for the cost.
Makes life a lot easier.
.
) loosing their shit about the possiblity that the expansion was going to be paid.