As melee, Empowered Monoliths feel like D4's launch-state Nightmare Dungeons (Feedback)

General
143

From those, the icicles are the only ones I remember having enough range to be fired off-screen in my direction. And they are clearly visible and move relatively slow. The wengari axe-throwers are nasty, but not attacking off-screen afaik.

It’s true that I can somewhat easily dispatch all those enemies with ranged attacks, while I have to approach them much more carefully with melee oriented characters.

With a Spellblade, either Surge or Teleport. If Surge, I consider the invulnerability node a must-have. It’s more important than the ward generation in my opinion. With a Beastmaster and Fury Leap, I would consider invulnerability as a must-have, too. Sentinel’s Lunge ← invulnerability, again. Or Smite turned into a traversal skill.

If my traversal skills are on cooldown - I run zig-zag. Approaching head-on is usually to dangerous.

And if I absolutely hate the combination of modifiers, map layout, and enemies - I TP out and start the echo again, hoping for easier enemies.

While I had problems with login and zone transfers like all the others, I fortunately had no problems with latency and rubberbanding when I was connected to the EUW server.

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So, firstly, you said you didn’t remember any ranged attacks without telegraphs. I just gave you a few examples. I think we can reasonably agree this means they exist. That was the only point being made here.

Secondly, I emphasized this isn’t just about a single telegraph. Meaning, just one of these attacks by themselves is not an issue. Problems arise when you are fighting many different enemies, dodging many different telegraphs, AND you have enemies hitting you off-screen.

This is a much bigger issue for melee than ranged, which is something I think everyone agrees on. Therefore, it’s reasonable to also agree that there are situations where melee can die much easier to off-screen, un-telegraphed attacks than ranged classes. So, yeah, the assumption in question is misleading at best, completely false at worst.

145

I have actually questioned this myself. It’s just hard to tell because there are so many janky mechanics that may or may not be lag. That said, I have definitely died to bosses as the result of server issues. It was much more noticeable on these fights.

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I stream so i can see it in some of my replays. Often record for self knowledge, not ready to post guides on empowered bosses yet.

But of my deaths in monoliths, about 70% have been due to lag, and 20% from large fps drops, where you can see my fps go from 60 to 5. Not entirelty sure, what causes it. As my pc hardly uses 40% of my system at full 1080p. I can see myself be teleported forward, then backward. Clunky tick rate on servers does nor help

147

The game is suffering from memory leaks and maybe some compatibility issues. I saw the same thing happen to Wudijo over the weekend during his stream. He was only running the game on medium and had to relog constantly.

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Ye that is a different issue in of itself. I can play about 3 hours before it gets so bad that my fps is in single digets. I reset my game almost every time i am ready to do an empowered boss. Memory leaks are common in unity as it is a POS engine that should been scraped in 2010

149

One thing I really enjoyed about Diablo III is that none of the bosses had 1-shot kill mechanisms. They were battles. I don’t think PC gamers really like videogame style bosses that you need tricks to beat.

150

LE seems to have taken the titan quest immortal throne approach to bosses, which i appreciate, but i think in this case it is a bit excessive. Game feels more like dark souls then a ARPG.

I would liked to go full iframe mode for some builds, or allow others to face tank with stats. Shame no middle ground

151

For what it’s worth, I too find that melee builds need a lot more thinking and gathering of gear vs their ranged counterparts but that’s not necessarily a bad thing, just a little more involved I guess.

I think that one shot mechanics should take the same time to land regardless of range… so say you are at the edge of the screen vs you are melee… the one shot takes 1 sec to land… that way both have the same reaction time given to dodge the attack.

Better yet, maybe just remove 1shot mechanics and have it deal like 80% dmg of total health+ward or a ward deleter but doesn’t dmg health… or removes all but 1hp but lets you keep your ward or something to those effects.

Anything out of the screen should not fire and maybe give us a dodge mechanic.

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I addressed off-screen attacks because one of your complaints was specifically that you get one-shotted from off-screen attacks that aren’t telegraphed. All off-screen attacks I remember are telegraphed. None of your examples were off-screen attacks, except for the slow-moving icicles.

Being caught off-guard from a telegraphed off-screen attack while you were busy with the enemies on-screen, that happened to me, too. Both with ranged and melee characters.

I agree that melee, on average, has a harder time and needs some love.
Ranged builds mostly have a two-tact rhythm: dodge, attack, dodge, attack.
Melee builds have a three-tact rhythm: engage, attack, dodge, engage, attack, dodge

I agree that there are mob compositions that make it even harder for melee characters, while I can’t think of a mob composition that is actually harder for ranged characters. Worst-case scenario - I struggle a tad more.

I also think that mobs should be immune to damage that they take from off-screen sources, at least until there were once seen on-screen.

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You keep saying you don’t remember things then insinuate that I’m wrong about something I clearly do. I gave you a few examples that clearly disprove the assertion that un-telegraphed ranged attacks don’t exist. Do I need to list and debate every single ranged attack in the game for you to start being reasonable? A quick google search will show you this has been brought up many times before. I don’t know what else to say.

Edit: I’m running an echo right now and Osprix Lightmages continuously cast both their long-ranged attacks (telegraphed) and medium range attacks (not telegraphed) while off screen. I just can’t make this argument any clearer for you.

Even if every off-screen attack was telegraphed, that doesn’t change the fact it’s easier to get one-shot off screen as melee for the reasons I’ve already addressed ad nauseam.

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My biggest issue is that I am an HC enjoyer, and these types of concerns force you to either play very specific masteries or very specific builds. Is that acceptable? It depends on who you ask, but I can tell you that lack of build diversity is a very real issue with ARPGs. It’s why I feel the D4 NMD similarities are a huge red flag worth mentioning.

I also don’t think the problems I have mentioned are unfixable, so while there will always be some level of power disparity, I feel like there is a lot of low hanging balance changes that can easily be addressed.

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It seems our experiences or interpretation of events in game differed then. Maybe it was due to my lack of awareness, which might be possible.

Therefore, I decided to test enemy attack patterns while paying attention. I singled out the enemies, so I could test their behaviour a bit.

Wengari Raiders initiate their attacks only while on my screen. Around the border on the top or bottom, about half-way to the left or right of my character. If I move away, they follow before making their next attack. But: The range of their projectiles is quite high. It is totally possible that they throw an axe while you are moving inside their range, but you get hit when the projectile reaches you a screen away. Correction: they can barely attack me from off-screen from the bottom. Was difficult to tell at first because of the action bar.

Wengari Outriders can throw their bigger, slower, and more visible axes from just outside the bottom of my screen, but they are always on-screen from all other angles.

Some other projectile enemies I tested: Drowned Ravens, Sleet Weavers, Imperial Arbalests, Mortal Hunters - they all can attack me from just outside of my visible range at the bottom of my screen, but not from any other angle, it seems.

Scalebane Sorcerers, Lake Beetles, Winged Fires, Skullen Shamans and Chucklers - always the same. They can attack me from just outside the bottom of my screen, the Lake Beetle’s projectile being difficult to see. Meruna Sirens seem to have a tiny bit more range, but not much. Both their ball attack and wave are highly visible, though. Reacting in time can be tricky, still.

Osprian Vanguard’s volcanic orb is on screen.
Ice Elementals - they start their barrage of icicles when outside the screen, as I remembered. Also, their attack has quite some wind-up time, so if you have left one alive behind you, the icicles might catch you later.
Crystal Elementals - same, only from the bottom can they off-screen attack you.
Scalebane Saboteurs throw spears from a bit further away, but they stick a second to the ground before exploding, so I consider it telegraphed.

Finally, Osprian Lightmages - sometimes they cast their “meteor” from further away, quite telegraphed. But their medium ranged attack, the lightwave, doesn’t even have the range to attack you from outside the screen, it disappears rather quickly.

Now, for the ease of testing, I only ran un-empowered monoliths. AFAIK empowered only scales the health and damage, not stuff like attack range, projectile speed and range, etc.

I tested two different resolutions/ratios: 1920x1200 and 2560x1080, which didn’t make a difference for the north-south visibility.

For the moment, I would conclude that being attacked from the south can result in off-screen kills, but the problem isn’t as dire as like they attack from a whole screen away without telegraphs. Maybe EHG should adjust the attack range of enemies by 1m or so because of the camera angle.

This wasn’t all enemies, of course, but what I could manage for now.

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I don’t think that “Don’t stand in the large red circle on the ground that’s about to explode and kill you” counts as a “trick”.

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You can have your opinions when it comes to Asmon, DM, and streamers in general. I certainly have mine. However, some of you really need to understand this clip is not how just streamers, but most people, will feel when they encounter the experiences I predict many ultimately will.

I have 256 hours into this game between pre-release iterations and 1.0. I am among what I am sure is the minority of players currently experiencing 1.0 endgame. I am also among what I am sure is the even smaller minority of players who choose Spellblade as their main mastery. Yet, I’m told by people who have never even reached normal monoliths, or ever touched a melee mastery, that my experiences, opinions, and honestly, many absolute facts are somehow invalid.

These debates are lacking in every area when it comes to honesty, credibility, objectivity, and most importantly, constructive intent. My intent is to help make LE the best game possible. Most of you seem to just want to undermine this effort because you take it personally when someone finds flaw in your favorite brand of dopamine.

The sad part is, no one in this equation is claiming LE is a bad game. Myself included. That doesn’t mean it’s perfect. It also doesn’t mean someone should have to reach 300C or play for 1000 hours to have a valid experience. It definitely doesn’t mean someone should have to deep dive into pedantic theorycrafting or whataboutisms and what-ifs to find the silver-lining.

The even sadder part is that Asmon’s “review” of the game is all based on everything that takes place up to and before reaching Empowered Monoliths. I, too, thought the game was almost perfect until I arrived at this point. I expect more people to share my opinions in the coming days, however.

That said, my feedback has been submitted, and though I will continue to progress and exceed the 300C benchmark, it will not change. Because this feedback wasn’t just about me, just like the health and longevity of LE isn’t just about any one of you individually, either. I said my take would age like a fine wine, because if the people like yourselves, who rail against any “negative” feedback about any game ever, have their way, this game will only get worse–not better.

That said, I’ve nothing more to say and will be unsubscribing from this thread.

158

I’m running a fire tornado / squirrels shaman and bosses are pretty easy for me. Buuuuuut, I can see how D3 players (no offense to D2 or 4) who are used to traditional battles do not like the big bonk bosses. Its a fun build I posted a public screenshot in the Steam thingie. Not sure how to link those here.

159

I ran empowered monolith as warlock and regular on necro in legacy, to the questions of being one shot of screen… yes it happens, and it happens a lot

Eg: Monolith, enemy tiger/ underground worm / ice golems / Exiled Mage

All of these have killed me off screen, because i was focusing on picking up an item [eyes on center of screen] and the enemy has launched an attack that was either to fast to react to, nor could i see their animation.

Another one that killed me of screen was Majasa. Her turrets fire at you from off screen especially her fire and shock totems

So ye. The problem exists

160

You mean, other than the spinning axe that comes flying at you?

I’ll give you your points about melee-centric issues, but this surprise off-screen, one-shotting just isn’t there. Either there’s a projectile coming at you, or there’s a telegraph where the bomb is going to land. If there’s any that don’t, then feedback those specifically, because they should be fixed. Complaining about an icicle that kills you, or a spinning axe, or a big green circle on the ground… that’s just a move out of the fire problem. I’ve been playing this game quite a while, and I can’t think of any invisible damage source that just insta-gibs you, without any warning whatsoever.

As for the (legit) melee problems, EHG has already admitted to it, and it’s something they are looking at. It’s also something that has existed in every game, forever. Fixing it is not easy, and usually it just comes down to certain mobs are easier for melee, and certain ones are easier for ranged. I played melee in EQ and WoW for over 2 decades, so I’m aware of the issue. But, other than just adjusting the dmg dealt by range or melee attacks, or giving melee characters increased dmg reductions (ala, D3), what can really be done? Eventually, you’re going to run into the wall of the dmg being too much to handle…even from 1 hit… and the advantage ranged has, will just be there again.

I mean, I guess you could temper the issue, by making ranged squishy enough that there’s more dmg sources that are lethal, and less to melee. So you tip the balance by sheer numbers… but that would just introduce the argument that playing a melee is brain-dead button pushing, while ranged characters have to be constantly dodging multiple dmg sources.

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Since I never experienced those un-telegraphed off-screen attacks the way he described it (in a couple hundred hours of gameplay), I tried to test his examples objectively today. Aside from being able to barely attack outside the visual range from the bottom of the screen, most enemies don’t attack from far off-screen.

For the abilities that do, their projectiles either move slowly, or the attacks are telegraphed by some preceding visual clue. The visible clarity of some of these clues could be improved, though.

While projectiles might not be fired from enemies off-screen, one might get hit from projectiles that were fired off-screen from your current position. Either because you were the target some seconds ago while on-screen with the monster, or because you were hit by a stray projectile meant for another target, e.g. those hyper aggressive summoned Ice Beetles.

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There’s a lot of things happening in monoliths and its almost completely based on knowing what each enemy does. Since the enemies are considered fodder trash, the idea of needing to care about them is foreign. Once their abilities are understood, things get much easier.

The idea of knowing like 40-50 different important abilities is kinda awful and some people will just say “keep moving and this mitigates most damage”. With that reasoning, you can tell they play ranged or use static damage as they move.

Here’s a list of things I learned when playing…

  • As a mage I can be immune to stun on teleport with an idol. You can use two of them to stack the duration. Or instead of idols, you can spec to the left, but you need cooldown reduction to make that work.
  • You want a cleanse for poison and ignite. The damage over time effect can be strong enough to kill you after you’ve killed everything, giving the impression that something offscreen bodied you. To solve this, either use an ability with a cleanse like I do or do what most other players do…use one slot on their belt with the ability “100% cleanse when you use a potion”. Most players don’t need to use potions to heal since they have leech, so your potion button will be your cleanse.
  • Some floor effects can be unfair to melee, such as the poison floor on enemy death and the poison floor launched by some of large plant mobs. Just need to respect the damage they do as they’ll only do damage while you are in them and they aren’t debuffs.
  • Some enemies can hit from multiple screens away and even global range, I like to call them siege units. Things like the plants that do the green circle aoe or the fire golems, the blood spires or the dreaded wengari spire. You gotta respect the wengari spire aoe for example, the moment you see those spikes hit the ground, move out before the frost explosion hits. It can one shot from anywhere on the map if you aren’t stacked to the moon on defenses.
  • Several mobs, when aggroed, can attack from up to 1 screen away. Most of these enemies are easy to kill but can be deadly if left alone. These are things like the floating ice guys that shoot the line of ice, the little void guys that do the void volleys, the fire archers and the fire meteorite mages. The rolling fireball mages can also catch you off guard if you aggro one and scroll it offscreen while it casts. I notice some hardcore players just reroll their monolith when they see these mages lol.
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