@Scipo0419 and @F0lk,
You guys mind sharing planner links to the builds you were going to play after reset? I have not taken an interest in Primalist and for what ever reason Marksman doesn’t get a lot of love in the build/guide making community.
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Because some MG people are especially there for the trading aspect. Which is bad enough that the duping effected it sadly, but that’s a major point.
Also depending on how much they played it might have them outfitted with a large portion of MG tagged gear bought from the bazaar. Since gear is the major way for power in the game removing that is basically re-starting from a far further place, potentially wasting tens if not hundreds of hours of progress.
Because we sadly have no way for re-pricing items and people tend to price regarding to already existing listings. And since re-pricing costs the same amount of favor as listing an item in the first place it can often lead to items staying high-priced for too long.
In a normal market this wouldn’t be the case since re-pricing causes reactions of others to re-price as well, up to the point where supply and demand cause a equilibrium between people selling those items reliably versus people acquiring them reliably. Without that measure though this is slowed down rather extremely.
Also sellers don’t need to give up since specific items have a ever higher demand and barely any supply in the game, those naturally rise in price. There were a few rather long discussions about itemization which I also participated in.
Basically with how the drop-system, affix-system and crafting-system is set up you can expect to need between 15-25 T7 items of the right base with the right affix to get your ‘optimal’ outcome. Which is a single slot.
The time to acquire one such item is beyond 100 hours of effort in MG though, which means those will not fall in price but instead rise.
And besides the bricking through crafting the LP mechanic removes also a good portion of the items which are on a sub-optimal base-type, causing a very extensive draught there over time.
The dupe simply sped up what would happen naturally, which is for a surprisingly large portion of possible drops to cap the gold price, which leads to the functionality of the market being broken.
Market caps are a problem to reach for several reasons. The most important one… if a T7 and T6 well crafted item for example reach that… what goes beyond? Any more rare item can hence only be traded by exchange directly as the market becomes useless for it. It would be a loss to put up a 2 LP red ring when it would theoretically be 100 or 1000 times valued more then the cap, you would loose out on that.
Having it happening in 1.0 and 1.1 both showcases a fundamental design-flaw in the system which needs to be addressed, very direly so.
It destroys the fundamental reasoning for item exchange on a market.
The second major aspect is simple availability. If your item can’t be provided through the market it only leaves CoF anyway, making MG basically nonsensical to use long-term despite it being theoretically the superior option since it pools the community efforts together. In this case though nothing is provided to you, you can’t gather resources to acquire those things in the first place and you have to use gifting anyway to acquire it, making the option where you get items quicker (CoF) simply the superior option for 100% of players which want to play long-term.
And that’s just a few of the existing issues with the current setup. There’s more I won’t get into right away.
And as you say, circumventing the auction system itself together with the ongoing situation causes those issues to become far more visible. They still would be there and a downside, but this way players which play long enough are basically required to team up solely to exchange items with each other.
It’s all in all a bad system sadly.
https://www.lastepochtools.com/planner/QbLXGX9o
Here’s mine, it’s a WIP as I unlock and test things. Avoiding the Blast Rain node in Explosive Trap because I want my main attack to be Detonating Arrow (and I like the minefield XD)
Concept is to throw the minefield out, freezing enemies and spawning ballista. Causing any older ballista (or if I spawn more than 2) to explode, and the remaining I can stick by so they get Frenzy and shoot out explosive bolts (sometimes a spread) faster. The extra traps will shoot Detonating Arrows for me as well. And I use Hail of Arrows whenever the previous one expires (haven’t unlocked this yet not sure if I need to tweak anything) smoke bomb for safety, and Detonating Arrow as my filler/mana regen.
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This makes me think of the FFXIV market board. You list the items and purchasers pay a 3% (or something) tax (as a gold sink). So a suggestion could be to have a flat rate favor cost to list an item, but don’t require favor to adjust the prices and allow players to change the price on the listing itself. With the suggested MG specific currency, you would eventually reach an equilibrium. I’m not a market analyst though, so I’m sure I’m missing something.
Edit: since I mentioned the tax without bringing it back up for LEs system, adding a small favor or currency tax on purchases could help prevent the currency from becoming too inflated. Or require the currency as a listing fee to begin with?
Yes, this is a very mandatory aspect, but it doesn’t fully solve the issue, it’s a fantastic start though.
I haven’t even gone into taxation, just the circumstances without actual gold circulation happening even.
The current state of the market is that when I pay 100k for a single item another person suddenly has… 100k. So they can buy their item.
The only limitation is online time there, so if we have for example 2 people which through sheer dumb luck got several great drops which the other one needs then it usually goes that the first players 100k item is bought, then the other’s 100k item… so they’re gone. 100k sold quick… next one is 105k, getting 5k is quick, hence it sells quick again since basically all funds are already acquired.
This way gold circulates without reduction and steadily increases the prices until the cap is hit over time.
The removal of favor cost for re-pricing was something I immediately talked about when the system came out.
Also about a premium currency to avoid hitting the cap early on and avoid other mechanics to become basically useless for a MG player.
Same as the taxation since it actually creates a sink without allowing the circulation of gold through buying/selling to gradually rise the ‘floor price’ of items.
Those are the major ones, there’s more though.
Limitation on listings so long-term players don’t flood the market with both high-value and low-value items, leaving room for upstarts to actually create a profit and not pool it solely at the top.
Favor costs solely for sales to avoid mistaken ‘0’ cost listings.
Rep gain being the full 4 upon acquiring favor for MG to avoid misconceptions and it leading to market flooding.
Scaling favor prices with buying prices (floor price + increase as the price increases)
Minimum prices to ensure effort needs to be put into item acquisition.
Rank rework to instead adjust taxation, access shouldn’t be hindered by rank but rather by character progress. (level or content).
Overall there’s a lot to be done still, some are up to be contended, others are a mandatory aspect for it to function in the first place.
Some of those are mild problems… others leading to a infallible outcome over time, which affect Legacy. And no, people also play Legacy so the market for them is as important… actually more important since they got to deal with it long-term and not for a few months.
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I wasn’t talking about the length of a cycle patch.
Thats why first thing in my reply to llama was saying correct about early end or longer cycle patchs.
What i was talking about is when these resets would happen. Which EHG has told us when these would.
They even had to specify that this isnt 1.2 cycle patch (major patch)
Now my question is why specify it in the OP and still have it posted in the discords FQ. If major patch isnt the only time a reset will happen. Why is this info still up in it. Or even keeping saying cycle patchs are major patchs.
Is 3-4 months a goal yes. Whats they said about resets doesnt line up with the info they gave the community
Anyways id love to hear others thoughts on suggestions to improve these mid cycle resets so players dont have to be forced to play legacy just to keep playing cycle patch characters.
Which i dont agree with at all. Big turn off for me
If this is what EHG wants to do going forward
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Damn I figured I was overlooking something important, which lead me to pose the question. Yeah faction switch after investing quite a lot of time/gold/favor would kill the experience and make the MG gear unequipable.
I suspect the original concept for the market/trade faction wasn’t for it to be a capitalism trade simulator, but just an efficient means of exchanging items (without bartering), with a nominal gold cost to give the experience the thematic feel of buying/trading. Unfortunately, greed almost always creeps in and that is going to ruin such a simplistic idea.
Thank you I’ll have to look into this further.
From my post #422:
[== Long Variable Length Cycle (LVLC) ====================================]
[season #1] [R] [season #2] [R] [season #3] [R] [season #4] [R] [season #5] [R] [==EoC==]
In the above there are 5 seasons. “R” = reset. “EoC” = End of Cycle
The use of the word and concept of “cycle” is a bit overloaded. I think we should switch mid/sub-cycle to season. The LVLC gets the X.Y major patches while seasons can come with or without a patch. The above still allows for the EHG to preempt a season due to something going terribly wrong.
@Kulze :
I’m going to assume your description of the econ situation to be accurate. If my assumption matches reality, then without serious changes to MG faction design, aren’t we doomed to repeat this same problem in the future?
Using the search function, I did not find any statement (or even question) that (if) major patches are the only time cycles will reset/refreshed/whatever.
Neither in discord nor in the dev streams. Since it is possible that I just didn’t find it, perhaps you can point me to it with a link, since you seem to know where it is written down.
Thanks 
Well, a market always has several people interacting with it, and even in singular person to person trades you need to implement safety measures to avoid scamming and trickery as well as possible. There’s always bad eggs ruining it for everyone.
But… a capitalistic approach for a market itself is not bad, it’s fairly obvious people will try to get the best out of it for themselves, that’s a given. But that also means the necessary thought has to go into it.
Markets are luckily well researched and computer games have aided that research massively (Eve Online caused more then a single thesis for a student in university for example). We nowadays know which aspects need to exist to make one work and what by guarantee causes one to fail over time.
A proper framework takes care of that and ensures not only enjoyable but also positive experiences for a market… for that it needs to be done ‘right’, meaning that the bits which are a necessity need to be upheld, which - sadly - is currently just not the case. Duping should only be a short-term issue for a market commonly, it can happen and when solved the market automatically regulates itself afterwards. Bad situation… no serious repercussions.
But if the proper framework of a market isn’t upheld then we get what we have in LE, long-term persisting issues which don’t solve themselves through natural market equilibrium.
And that has to be fixed.
Yes. We are.
Over and over.
It likely won’t be a issue inside cycles, but in Legacy the market is basically unusable and it’ll only get worse over time.
I’ve had in-depth discussions about the topic several times already, spanning 20+ posts and working out details, discussing specifics.
The core design of MG is simply faulty, it doesn’t work with a player driven market environment. Some parts of the foundation are good or even fantastic… like no ability to re-sell items which causes price-fixing to not exist, as well as sale-bots having no angle to exist either. Very good.
Others though are purely detrimental (In the framework of LE).
This includes favor prices for listing. Gold usage instead of a specific currency (The least important point). Access restriction as ranks. No taxation. No favor scaling.
This sounds more like what mike has talked alot about. Is doing hybrid type cycles.
This here wouldnt be bad just needs to be communicated better than whag we have been being told aboit resets
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EHG has never said when resets would happen. They said when cycles will end.
All new cycles come with a reset, but not all resets are because of a new cycle.
This is the situation we’re in now and how EHG will operate going forward (unless they change due to the posts in this thead)
Could just use whats already in game. Like favor instead of gold. Or allow for item for item trading like poe but keeping all current MG rules intact
Favor wouldnt need to drop cuz u get it from killing mobs. But now how much favor does one gain when an item sells 10% of the favor cost?
Items already drop.
That part is probably easy. But now how about those stashes where an account has a mix of cof tagged gear as well as mg.
Only solution i can think of is just wipe all MG gear. As well as gear not tagged for a faction
Since nothing that drops in MG is tagged not trade able. And only gets tagged MG wheb u buy it off the market
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Why are CoF folks being punished with this reset because bad actors duped gold and items and ruined the game economy?
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because nothing is stopping players from having multiple characters in different factions and the ability to swap factions exists.
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it’s not a punishment for anyone. A disappointment at most.
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as far as we’re aware (basically as much information as we had about cycle duration before this fiasco) the next part of cycle 1.1 will last at least as long as these past 2.5 months, if not longer.
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Not until they add Arena Ladder for Legacy.
The lack of respect for Legacy players is close to Blizzard ruthless milking style.
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Do you have any kind of data to back this up?
Do you play in Legacy yourself? Do you have data about how many players play in Legacy? And of all players in Legacy, do you know if this is a common request from them, having arena ladder?
I mean… I never seen anyone requesting this…
The only guys using this “argument” here are the ones trying to badmouth the company, inventing whatever they can to accuse EHG of being disrespectful to players… Turns out, these same people DO NOT play in Legacy… They actually think Legacy is a trash bin, a place not worthy of them playing their precious characters in.
I see you have no characters in Online Legacy, so, I ask again, do you have any kind of data to back this up?
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Umh… how would you put ‘lack of respect’ into data?
And what meaning does it have if someone plays Legacy to allow them to talk about it?
I don’t play Cycle commonly but nonetheless I talk about it. I did so for a long time in PoE and I know exactly why it’s important for a company, several reasons as to why people enjoy it as well as what’s important to make those commonly work long-term.
But since I don’t play cycle… I can’t talk about it I guess?
Sounds nonsensical to me.
As for how many play it.
Likely more then 10%, which is the number which GGG provided for this question, in a game which has distinct reasons to play their league/cycle unlike LE.
So I’ll argue it’s substantially higher, likely 20%+
And while hyperbole the argumentation that general ladders being not existent in legacy is disrespectful is viable. The quesiton is… why wouldn’t they be? Reset them like a normal cycle ladder when a new one comes out, gives people incentive to push or optimize their equipment there. Also with the changes in balancing it means each cycle commonly other builds will be at the top, especially in Legacy the skill aspect is of higher importance then pure play-time given that over time you can build up a substantial amount of good gear.
I understand the frustration about the tone, but the argumentation itself is… off, utterly off.
It would be nice to have, I haven’t heard many asking of it (to be fair, barely anyone plays arena in the first place) but it’s also not a massive investment for EHG to implement it.
Why it’s not there? They likely deemed it not necessary… but that’s a weird reasoning anyway as that’s for the individual to decide and it wouldn’t cost them much effort.
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That shouldn’t be confusing to you… You simply log how many players or a % of players are requesting something… if it’s a significative number and the company ignores it, then you can say the company is disrespectful of players.
You have all rights to talk about it…
You just don’t get to talk on behalf of Cycle players, neither request features on behalf of Cycle players. (heck, even someone who plays cycle do not get to talk on behalf of us all, that’s why I asked about some data to back up his arguments)
Same goes for players who do not play in Legacy, but feel like they have the right to request features on behalf of Legacy players.
I don’t play Legacy, but here I am, talking about it… I’m just not pretending I have anything to do with it.
Sure, there is no Ladder in Legacy Arena. But if the majority of Legacy Players do not care for it, nor are commonly requesting it, then the company is disrespecting no one.
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