Will there be dupe fixes? Will Chinese players be banned?

General
21

To be clear, I didn’t ask you for MG advice, or thoughts behind your price selection process. And I had no problem getting my build going.

I asked you, what makes you think the price is normal. As in, what makes you think the price this season wasn’t affected by exploits.

You want real life examples?
Imagine in real life, someone created billions of dollars out of thin air, and spread it across the USA by simply buying whatever he wanted :wink:
Now this fake money went through multiple hands, so merchants who happened to be trading at the time have tons of money, but the average Joe who works 12h/day has nothing and can no longer afford things he could afford previously.

22

It’s exactly what they are doing. But trillions of dollars. Technically it’s loan that thet would never pay and only increase it. And unlike game merchants expaanses also rises. Because gas, electricity, logistics is getting more expensive. Only guys who are benefiting is government and their lads who can manipulate markets.

23

It’s not a loan that never gets paid as there is no debt built up, the in-game gold supply is like printing money & just like in the 1920s & 30s you get rampant inflation.

Just because numbers go up doesn’t mean the government benefits.

24

Aaron, despite enjoying MG, isn’t really a no-lifer in that sense. He tries to sell some stuff, but he’s not obsessed with it nor does he play for the market. He plays the game and sells some stuff.
It’s quite different from a player that focuses all of his gameplay to getting stuff to sell.

Even before this season, it wasn’t hard to focus all your farming on idols and selling them. Idols sell especially well. T7 +skills also sell very well. Aaron usually keeps those, rather than selling them.

As for 200 million being a normal price for a single item, why wouldn’t it be normal? If players buy it at that price it’s totally normal. Trade is player regulated. You can sell stuff for however much you want. You just run the risk that no one will buy it.

The problem isn’t in the prices players set. The problem is that they are not selling the items that are overpriced but they don’t bother to reprice them. So they stay overpriced and other players that go and sell something simillar use that price as standard.

So the real problem is there not being an easy way to price check stuff and there also not being an easy way to check your listed stuff and re-pricing them. So most players don’t do that and end up with dozens of pages of items for sale (like Aaron) that will forever sit there. This is the main reason why prices get super inflated in LE.

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25

That was kinda the point.

Because your average gamer isn’t making those numbers with the gold making means available in the game.

  1. Trade is indeed player regulated. When you can’t make 200 mil in a reasonable time frame, item for 200 mil won’t sell.
  2. But now it does sell. That means there is a way to make large amounts of gold.
  3. But if you compare it to the gold output of your average gamer - Aaron was used as the example here - his gold output doesn’t match.

So prices are extremely high and items sell, but the average gamer cannot make the required amount of gold. That’s not normal.

26

What do you mean by average player? A guy who is not professional trader or the guy who plays 2-3 hours a day? I’m not professional trader by any means but right now I invest in game like 10 hours a day because I have vacation. I’m average Joe who can make billions in trading just investing enough time.

27

I’m not really sure that saying that normal players can’t buy expensive stuff os a bit of a weird comment if said expensive stuff was rare or top tier. It kinda feels like me complaining that I can’t afford to buy a palace/castle.

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28

That is the same issue in any game. The average gamer doesn’t have dozens of divines to buy a watcher’s eye. And yet, a watcher’s eye costs dozens of divines.

The more expensive stuff is usually only bought by the top % gamers in any game.

But you missed my point. The main reason why prices keep being inflated in LE is because it’s not easy to reprice them.
The strategy for selling in PoE is to overprice it, and then reduce the price regularly until you sell it.
In LE you can’t do this easily. Thus, we end with most players having dozens of tabs of listed items that are overpriced (like Aaron does) and will stay overpriced for the whole season. Which in turn inflates the prices.
And this happens even when most stuff isn’t being sold. It’s a vicious cycle.

The problem isn’t the exploits. Because most stuff still isn’t sold. The problem is the MG UI not letting you do simple things like price checking properly or, more importantly, adjust your prices.

1 Like
29

You are missing the point of discussion. (The other replies to you are missing it even more though)

Yes, you can make 100 milion ggold per day, but you are NOT GENERATING 100 million gold per day. I myself am farming 70 uber abbyes per day last 2 days, and made 1.5 billion gold. So what? The total RAW GOLD i got in this cycle, doesnt exceed 20 million, which is less than 1 % ( cause i have also 500 million in gear).

This amount of gold on the market, and the fact that there is such an insanely high turnover on the market, where people just instantly sell items for 100mil+ gold, considering how relatively hard is to farm raw gold, (RAW GOLD), is just impossible, and it clear indicator of gold artificually injected to the market ( by duping).

The thing is, before uber abby farm, total i got maybe 250 million gold. Out of which, i made less than 15 million RAW GOLD. What does it mean? three options:
a) either i was insanely lucky with unique and exalt drops for sell (i wasn’t).
b) other people are way more efficient with earning raw ggold than me (they probably aren’t)
c) there are heavy exploits, that generate raw gold from thin air, and then sell that gold to users which means they injecting tthe gold into the bazaar, which make prices of all items substantially higher.

Also add to that the fact, that since this cycle, each bazaar trade has 15% tax, which should heavily reduce the inflation, or even stop it at certain prices, where the loss of gold on the market due to tax is higher than gold generated by players.

From experience of last 3 cycles, I would say option c) is most likely.

besides that, we already have proof for 2 exploits of duping (some form of party play with some echo, and entering echo after dead and duping), and im 99.9999% positive looking at prices, that there are multiple more and much more severe dupes goin on.

30

I honestly don’t get your point. Trading in most games is shifting currency around. In fact, that’s the case in most economies.

The question was if it was normal that people are buying items for 200 million and that someone buying a 200 million item is someone that is using exploited money.
By your own admission, you have already profitted over a billion. Likely you bought gear for that price or higher. Are you exploiting?

You, personally, have generated 20M gold. So did the thousands of players in MG. Even if we assume that the average player only generated 1M gold and that there were only 50k people in MG, that’s already 50 billion generated. The actual number is probably quite higher by a magnitude or two.
That number then gets shifted around to the best sellers, who have a higher percentage of that gold. Usually they’re also the top 1% players. And they’re the ones that buy those items.

And both were fixed very fast (to the point where people were still reporting it even though it was no longer possible to do that) and at least most of the duped stuff removed.

What’s happening to the market is more due to panic-driven speculation. People think there is way more gold out there than there really is, they think most people have billions of exploited gold, so they increase the price to try to “exploit the exploiter”.
But how many of those actually get sold and how many of the overpriced stuff sits there forever?

2 Likes
31

My main point is, the amount of gold generated on average per echo, compared to the turnover on bazaar, and for how huge prices you can sell good items, are not making any sense, without any form of artificially injected gold through duping.
Going with your assumption, I would have over 2% of total gold on the market. In reality, i have probably less than 0.01%, which means average player would not to generate 1m gold,m but probably like 100 million +, which is just impossible, if even I didnt generate more than 30 million in this cycle.

To the last point, i am regularly selling those ‘overpriced items’ for big money,

32

TLDR - possible amount of gold generated per hour is disproportionately smaller to the gold value of items that are being sold on regular basis, clearly indicating heavy duping, which is even more likely if we take into the account experience from last cycles, and also take into account the tax on buying items on bazaar which should super heavily reduce inflation

33

I did say I was underestimating values by a magnitude or two.

Your whole premise goes away because you simply have no idea how much gold there is in the game. You’re making assumptions that the average player has 100 million but there’s nothing that would point to that.

The average player likely has something between 1-10M gold generated. What happens then is that the gold gets shifted by sales and you end up with a thousand people that have 1 billion gold because they sold their stuff to the average player, and the average player then has about 1 million liquid gold.

That is how trade mostly works. It gets shifted around where most people end up with less than they farmed and a few people end up with most of it.

Does it, though? Should we ban your account, since you have made over 1 billion gold, by your own admission, so that must be a clear sign of duping?

Or is it maybe likely that the top 1% of players buy the high price gear, then sell a bunch more stuff to shift gold back to them and buy them again?

What you’re saying is the same thing as saying that an Original Sin ring in PoE1 costs 1k divines and people still buy them, so they must be exploitng/duping.
You really have no knowledge of how much gold there is in the game, nor do you have knowledge of how markets behave. Especially in regards to speculation, which is what we currently have.

1 Like
34

The tax is only, what, 10%? It’s not going to “super heavily” reduce inflation. I’m also quite curious as to what the turnover time is for items in the bazaar & only EHG has that data.

35

Yes, you are underestimating values by couple magnitudes, but in your favour.

I stand by everything i said, but here is some extra.

It is tale as old as 1.0 release. We try to construct logical arguements and show premises why there is a dupe, in a good faith, people keep being in denial and not even consider it worth investigating if there is a dupe and how impactful it is and make more and more convoluted arguements about market and the economy, while all sings show that dupe is actually happening. And after two weeks, we happen to be right, but you already do not care about ruined Merchant’s Guild and move on. How about those spams yesterday of 100 mil gold per 1 $? Are they some form of charity that just give away 100 milion gold basically for free? Or they found an extreme dupe with almost infinite gold, and just try to get rid of possible highest amount of gold before it is detected, while injecting absurd amount of gold to a bazaar while inflating all prices?

Guess i will just wait couple days and reply to you after we see it in patch notes and after whole merchant’s guild is completely dead and everyone will already be on CoF or quit the game, just like it happened last two times.

Even if I am wrong about this, there is nothing good being in denial and defending the game and claiming there are no dupes, and EHG should actively investigating if any dupes are happening, unlike yesterday when they patched the reentering echo after death bug ONLY AFTER it was posted and heavily upvoted on reddit.

36

15%. It is not small, of course it heavily impacts the economy. In a hypothetical scenario where a player sells items worth 10 mil gold, then buys for 8.5 mil gold due to tax, and does it like 5 times, he ends up with 4.437 million gold, so he just lost over a half. And didn’t lose to anyone, the gold just evaporated from the market due to tax.

37

Let’s put aside the fact that many that actually spread the dupe information are just attention-seeking and actually do more harm to the game.

Where has anyone ever tried denying there was a dupe and that it shouldn’t be worth investigating? You’re making this up.

What I’m saying is that the exploits were fixed (and possibly some others that most players aren’t even aware of) and the duped stuff removed from the game.
And yet players like you behave like if people were still duping left and right and nothing was done about it.

Those happen in every single game that has trade. That is simply RMT. It’s not based on exploits. It’s based on bot farming.
You had those since day 1.

Exploited gold, and especially RMT gold, gets banned/deleted pretty quick.

Again, no one is saying that. What I’m saying is that the results of the dupes are handled by the devs and they don’t last. Player perception of them does and that’s why prices keep getting inflated even after the dupes and duped gold is removed.

EHG is always doing that. They don’t need you to call attention to that. They are monitoring these issues all the time.
If you know of a specific exploit that is happening, then you should contact them privately warning them about it. Otherwise just saying “Be on the lookout for dupes” is irrelevant, because they already are.

1 Like
38

So far, literally everyone who spread the dupe information since 1.0, was right, so what is the issue? And even if this was misinformation (and it wasn’t from experience of last cycles), where is the harm? So far you are harming the game by claiming EHG handled the dupes, which I’m very positive they didn’t.

Also, if we do not know the exact specifics how the dupe actually looks like, but only see all the premises that indicate that dupe is happening, we should just be quiet according to you or what?

RMT is a bussiness, if someone spams on global with 100mil for 1$, which was at that time 20 times below actual RMT market price, he as i said, works for some charity and just gives money for free (not likely), or he just abuses heavy dupe and wants to get rid off all the gold with profit before it will get find out.

Amount of raw gold generated now is like 5+ times less than on 1.0, where you could farm 10mil + raw gold per hour on high corruption cause it scaled hard with corrupion level unlike now (in 1.0 dupes were present like week 2 + forward), yet the prices we have now are insanely higher than in 1.0 week 1.

As i said, I will wait 1 week when we inevitably will know details of a dupe by then and respond to you.

39

The issue is that publicly spreading that information only encourages more people to use those exploits. Which in turn makes it so that the devs have a harder time removing the exploited stuff.

If they were really worried about the state of the game, they would do that privately instead of further destabilizing the market and making the devs work harder. But they don’t really care about that. They just want a pat on the back and a “Good job, Timmy”. And get vengeful if they don’t get it.

The devs themselves said so. I tend to believe the devs more than your conspiracy theories based on no real data but just a feeling.

What you’re saying is that you have nothing to say but you want to say it anyway.
If there are signs of dupes happening, the devs have been aware of them for longer than you have. If you don’t know of any dupe just a “they’re out there”, then why make vague arguments that don’t actually do anything to fix the issue?

Rather than making it better, you’re makin it worse by spreading panic. A game market works like a stock market. Panicked traders will react to that by crashing the market themselves.

You keep saying that, but you have absolutely no way to know this. Only EHG knows how much gold is being generated, because they monitor for it.
You don’t know how much gold was generated in 1.0 and you don’t know how much gold is being generated now.

So yes, it’s possible, and even likely, that there are dupes/exploits happening. And that EHG is handling them as well.
It’s more likely that the high prices are panic-driven because of a few people crying things out like this and the rest of the herd just following the trend.

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40

He’s not because they did. Why do you presume the devs are lieing when they say they’ve fixed dupes? Have you tried it post fix & it still works?

To be fair, he’s probably got a reasonable feeling on how much gold he’s generating now versus 1.0 & could then make a reasonable assumption that it’s similar for everyone else.

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