You mean like promising that PoE2 would be a separate campaign in the main game and then would share the endgame system with the rest of the playerbase? And then charging people for access to the EA of said game, except for the whales?
Are you deliberately trying to shift the point? You said (highlighted the most relevant parts):
This translates as “It’s fine if they charge a lot as long as they don’t use predatory tactics”. Which they do. They have loot boxes. They have limited time sales. Those alone already fall under predatory tactics (which you ranted about quite often) and affect the permanent MTX shop directly.
So PoE has bloated prices AND predatory tactics on those prices.
You mean instead of releasing it only when finished completely?
Mhmm… sure… same thing clearly.
Albeit it’s fair to say that limited time access is a shit-show as well, and I agree with you there. But the example you wanna make is a different one… and the bad thing happening is for a different situation.
Should we also point out that ‘Team Cherry’ has released ‘Silksong’ as a full-scale separate game rather then a DLC for Hollow Knight?
I mean… be reasonable at least… it’s a full-scale game rather then a simple tacked on campaign and fundamental rework of the systems. It’s not like it’s not F2P… it’s just not yet. Unless they change that it won’t be the same situation to compare it to.
Exactly! You got it finally
And there it should’ve ended, because the permanent MTX store has nothing to do with the other shit.
End of topic there.
‘But they also do!’ Yeah… they do… has still jack-shit to do with the fuckign MTX store itself now, has it? For fuck’s sake…
No. I mean instead of not charging for access to EA and stick to the same system they already had.
Because PoE2 does have a box price right now, plus supporter packs and an MTX shop. It’s only missing an expansion to be in the same spot as LE.
Yes. You’re so adamant about all the consumer rights based on the companies’ promises. Why aren’t picking up your pitchforks about this? They promised the game would be playable alongside PoE1. You could play PoE2 with your PoE1 friends at the same time in endgame.
Then they went back on their word and now you have to choose one or the other. It even created a divide between PoE players, with some supporting one, some supporting the other and some supporting both.
How can you say that when they have mystery boxes (which you ranted about often enough, even in this thread, since they’re basically loot boxes) and they have limited time sales (which you ranted about often enough)? Don’t those affect the items in the permanent MTX store? Aren’t those predatory tactics?
So the moment it looses the box-price as promised it becomes superior again in a clear-cut manner?
Cause it’s a improvement for the customer and not a detriment?
Ya know… you also don’t complain when this happens: ‘Yeah, I owe you 10€… but I only have a 20€ bill. So here, take it!’ ‘But… that’s not what you promised! I demand a 10€ bill!’
As I said, stay within reason at least.
Cause… one is apples… the other is oranges? You don’t complain about the apples when the oranges are molding now, are you?
Seemingly not? The stuff from the MTX store doesn’t vanish because of those things and the stuff from the kirac pass is specifically designed to sell the kirac pass and wouldn’t exist otherwise anyway? So… I dunno what you’re on about there.
I mean… several other games have this issue and it’s kinda blatantly obvious, but it’s far-fetched to say GGG does this actually as nothing points towards it.
Is it, though? I play PoE1 with a friend. I want to play PoE2 and my friend doesn’t. GGG assured me that I would be able to play PoE2 with my friend that is playing PoE1. Now I can’t. We each have to play our games separately. Because GGG did a 180 on their promise.
It doesn’t apply to Silksong because Silksong is a SP game. But it definitely applies to PoE1/2.
Yes. After milking players for over a year (because it definitely won’t be ready to release at the end of the year either, as promised).
Why is one apples and the other oranges? Mystery boxes are available in the permanent MTX shop. They’re available for a limited time only. They give you MTX that are available only during that time.
That seems like textbook predatory to me (and the same as many things you complained about in the past as being predatory) and it’s right there in the permament MTX shop.
Other than the loot mystery boxes, that is. Those vanish.
And now you’re fine with limited time sales discounts? After ranting about them in the past saying they’re predatory and generate FOMO?
So… if you want to play the new campaign but your friend only likes the old one… is that different?
It’s a F2P game on release, and your friend wouldn’t want to play PoE 1 anyway if PoE 2 would’ve been implemented there because it was supposed to change the systems to those of PoE 2.
But I get where you’re coming form there at least, yes… it’s a split of the playerbase.
Then they’re not permanent now… are they?
The button makes not the functionality of it… that’s not what was talked about.
Are they MTX? Which is the topic? No? Guess you got your answer why it’s not applying.
You can have a issue with the stuff vanishing from a shop as a ‘limited time offer only’ while everything else - the permanent stuff - isn’t an issue. See the difference?
It is. Because we had the promise that we would be able to play together in the endgame. So each would do his campaign in the first day or two, then we have the rest of the season to play together.
Exactly. After the promise that they wouldn’t be split.
No. They are time limited items placed inside the shop. Which is a predatory practice, which is what was being discussed.
If they were placed outside the shop, like the Kirac Pass or the season rewards, then they wouldn’t be related.
But this way, the shop has bloated MTX prices alongside predatory boxes. Not to mention that supporter packs are also available in the shop and they are also time limited.
Yes? They’re the very definition of it? MTX = microtransaction. Portals are MTX. Pets are MTX. Armours are MTX. Boxes are MTX. Supporter packs are MTX.
Everything you buy in-game with either real money or with their currency (which is itself an MTX) is an MTX.
The only difference the boxes have to normal MTX is that instead of getting the MTX you want you get a random one, meaning it’s gambling on top of being MTX.
Even if you dismiss the fact that they’re both presented in the same place so as to incentivize you to buy the time limited stuff (which I don’t know why you would, but again, you’re more lenient to GGG than to everyone else), there would still be the issue of the temporary discount sales, which you have said in the past is also predatory and leading to FOMO.
Which you haven’t addressed yet.
There was no discussion about it.
The discussion was about value of supporter packs formerly and then shifted over to the price-range of MTX from a single comment.
At no place was the specific topic of discussion at that time about time-limited stuff, it was solely about direct MTX, no hooks applied.
Bloated MTX prices are not predatory. They’re just outrageous… but not predatory. Good? Nah. Same level as predatory practices? Not even remotely, don’t buy em, they have too low value simply.
The common perception of MTX in this genre is different from the norm. It’s related to the vanity items, not that it’s microtransactions.
You don’t buy a supporter pack with microtransactions inside… you buy a supporter pack with MTX, which relates to the decorative stuff… they’re not microtransactions, they’re normal transactions.
Albeit we can argue when it goes away from ‘micro’ there to be exact… but I hope we can agree that a 90€ supporter pack is not a microtransaction.
Yes, but it’s the existence of the limited time stuff which is the issue, not the positioning. Positioning makes it only worse, the point is it shouldn’t exist in the first place, hence positioning becomes unimportant anyway.
If it’s ‘not there’ it’s unimportant where it’s ‘not there’
It wasn’t though. You said it’s fine to have bloated prices as long as there is no predatory practice associated with it. So we’re discussing whether PoE has predatory practices associated with it, of which time limited stuff is a part of.
Even by that definition, it’s something you buy which gives you vanity items. So yes, it’s an MTX, except you don’t choose the one you want, you get a random one via gambling. It’s pure gacha.
Yes, but discount sales means that the items are there for a lower price for a limited time only. Which is something that in the past you denounced as predatory and generating FOMO. And which you still haven’t addressed in this discussion.
Ok…
So…
Is time-limited stuff predatory for digital products? Yes? Hence excempt obviously?
No? You buy a gamble box and not a vanity item. Could be crap you don’t need, could be great. Indirect.
Gacha is not a vanity item, it’s a gambling roll, very different.
How do discount sales suddenly come up?`I didn’t even speak about them! What the heck?
And yes, they shouldn’t happen either, the only exception is guaranteed pre-known repetition at most. For example the stash tab discount in PoE is acceptable… not optimal but at least it doesn’t cause FOMO as it comes back in 2 weeks with guarantee again… and then the next 2 weeks… and the next… perpetuum. Hence non-permanence built into permanence. Makes it a odd fringe-case and I’m personally not 100% sure if the effects are similar hence, cannot voice a pro or con to that fully. I think it’s at least ‘better’ though.
Isn’t it the same thing though? I never bought a mystery box (although I did have a couple for free at some point or another), but looking at the current mystery box available in PoE, it gives exclusively MTX. And it’s random.
Gacha is “But this, get a random hat from among the 500 hats we have”. Or pet. Or even gear/hero if it’s P2W.
Both are effectively the same. You get a random MTX. And if you want them all, or you want a specific one, you have to buy several boxes until you do.
You didn’t. I did. They’re part of the whole “bloated prices are ok as long as there are no predatory practices associated with them”. Of which this would fall into.
I can give you that, but those aren’t the only discount sales they have. They also have discount sales where random MTX have a discount. Pets, portals, etc.
Tabs discounts all tend to be the same. But the rest of the MTX isn’t always the same that gets the discount or how much discount.
So, would that fall into the predatory practices you so dislike? And would that mean that the permanent MTX are both bloated and subject to predatory practices?
Would that make the bloated prices not ok, since that was the initial premise of the whole thing?
First off: Yes, the sales fall into predatory tactics.
Secondly: No, the MTX directly isn’t affected though, unless the pricing is specifically set in regards to the sale-price rather then the sale-price being an actual reduction of the price.
That’s not easy to find out for the customer, but when it’s done in regards to bloating the base price to have the sale-price as the basis then it becomes often visible depending on other markers. Still the bloated price itself isn’t any issue, it’s the happening of the sale.
Saying sales fall into predatory tactics undermine real predatory tactics, like loootboxes and pay for power.
Also by this logic, most retailers, product maker are using predatory tactics.
Summer sales, predatory, sales of old goods, predotory. Buy 2 get one free, predatory. Set meals, predatory. Discount vouchers, predatory…
The concept is the same.
They’re just less predatory.
Go back to the definition of what predatory means: Urging the customer to make a payment which under normal circumstances wouldn’t happen, hence providing a heightened chance for usage of funds allocated for otherwise important aspects of life.
A sale is timed, hence ‘buy now or loose out’ which can cause people to pay into them despite not having the necessary funds available at hand, thus leading to a detrimental outcome for them.
Lootboxes work based on the gambling-fallacy, hence ‘just one more and I’ll get what I want’, this causing heightened spending beyond what would otherwise be deemed acceptable, hence leading once again into allocating otherwise necessary funds to it, this leading to a detrimental outcome.
Pay 2 Progress (Pay for power) is not inherently predatory, though it can be if the magnitude of progression is so different that the value for doing so is magnitudes higher. This leading to using the product beyond the available measures, thus leading once more to detrimental outcomes as funds allocated for more necessary measures is used.
Yes
Welcome to modern sales tactics! Many are predatory.
Yep, you understood it! On a fundamental basis they all fall into this category.
It’s the mildest available one on the market, but they all cause you to make decisions not based on merit but urgency instead.
Is a MTX in a store automatically a item to be discounted? No?
So there is the differentiation.
You can do it, but it’s not a necessity. Unless you wanna say ‘all MTX is by design predatory as it can be discounted on a timed basis’. Which is the same as saying ‘every knife is a murder weapon as you can kill someone with it’. Just not true, it matters how you use a tool.
So that means we can talk about A and B… but you cannot conflate them together inherently.
The items in a MTX store are not by design predatory.
Timed stuff is.
Sales are.
Gambling boxes are.
Functional stuff is when the value is so high that it seems like a necessity.
And so on and so forth.
So no, a shop inherently is not bad… unless you wanna abolish all supermarkets as well, down with the shops!
I talked the whole time about the core MTX store and inclusions where suddenly thrown about.
‘But aren’t timed sales predatory?’ Yes! And? Not the topic.
‘But aren’t lootboxes predatory?’ Yes! And? Not the topic.
My original answer was towards conflated MTX prices in a store, which I mentioned are not inherently predatory, people and companies can set their prices how they want, only using the respective tactics to create urgency is predatory. High prices are just outrageous and baffling.
That was all before people went in with weird questions.
As for the direct question: Gach-/mystery-/lootboxes are all the same, so obviously a ‘no’ in general. Rather big net-negative for a game. GGG’s gets reduced to a degree as all content comes permanently in the store afterwards, still not a good thing, still a net-negative, just not as big of one.
