This game was my favorite ARPG before 0.3 POE2 patch, but still a close 2nd after that. 700h played, huge huge fan.
If this “expansion” has to be paid for, I will not be buying it. Not acceptable to charge for content at the state the game is in.
That is all
They said buy once and everything else besides mtx is free. If they don’t keep their word that’s telling enough to not spend anything on EHG. If they start to breake announcements or “promises” they are the worst and that’s it.
The “they” who said that no longer have a say.
The people that made that (short sighted) promise are no longer in control.
If the expansion interests me and I think it will extend my fun in the game I’m happy to pay for it.
You could say the same about p2w or using any of the egregious manipulative techniques that we’ve come to know & love from the worst corners of monetisation.
It’s the greatest ARPG ever,
I’ll buy a copy of the xpac on your behalf, and send it to one of my friends. Just to make up for your loss.
Judd and EHG: the expansion is far off and doesn’t even have a date set for release, it’s likely numerous seasons will occur before it happens.
You:
Pretty sure the game won’t be in the state it ‘currently is’ by the time the expansion gets here. But hopefully posting this made you feel better.
Yeah and how can we say that?
So they are in the red for 3 seasons, have not been able to convert enhanced quality(more staff) into more money, so why is there is weird stance that “well obviously by then they will have done a 180”
Blind faith is just as negative and bad as being mad at nothing.
Pretty sure the game won’t be in a state to justify charging for content by that time either. But hopefully posting this made you feel better.
That’s pretty funny. But, since neither of us can actually know (you’ll say your going on your experience, I’ll say I’m going on mine) only time will tell and we can look back on this in a year and have another chuckle.
My feelings are irrelevant. I’m not in my cups because I feel cheated.
But that’s why we have the forums. So we can air our grievances and share our praise.
In a years time, or whenever the expansion is released, we shall be able to look back on this debate, hoist a pint and have a good chuckle. If we’re all still here.
We’ll see, won’t we.
To fix the shortcomings of the current core game and with a increase in speed and quality every Cycle (from experience and better content-pipeline setup) we can still expect this to take at least 2 years to happen.
Do you think EHG talks about a expansion which will only come in 2 years? Rather then in… let’s say 1? Half a year?
They’re already net-negative and absolutely fucked it up beyond measure… they did so since pre 1.0 non-stop and people (including me) called them out over… and over… and over again. I was bashed left and right whenever I said ‘this here is a red flag, don’t let it happen!’ to only be told to screw off, they’ll fix it for sure!
And here we are. Jack-shit is fixed, the red flags have turned out to be true and they’re going potentially against existing EU customer laws which will with a high potential (especially in the current state of affairs with video games being under scrutiny) cause them cost at the hallmark of tens of millions should they do it as they said.
You simply cannot sell a product (yes, a crowdfunding with a return being given for funding is a product sale in the EU) on the premise of stating ‘You’ll get unlimited full product access for the full time of existence of the product’ and then go along to backtrack.
The only viable option is to make an exception for everyone before the change has been stated.
And that would kinda be their whole playerbase… so wouldn’t make sense now, would it?
But if they don’t do it they will with a decent chance be in court against the EU customer protection.
I dunno… which way of failing do you prefer? The one where you go away on good terms or the one where you struggle while screwing everyone over until everyone detests you? We see the direction EHG is going clearly.
Law is a complicated thing, and not all things are clear-cut.
In the Kickstarter campaign, they wrote “planned pay model”. Plans can change, in contractual language, that can be important.
If you read the ‘Risk and Challenges’ section, you’ll find:
Risks and Challenges
Since we have most core systems created and ready for heavy content implementation, the only large risk we run is the lack of buy-in from our community. As with any game aiming to continue delivering content after release and supporting multi-regional online support, we will rely on the Last Epoch community to continue funding the game through cosmetic microtransactions. If our current community’s enthusiasm is any indicator of their future buy-in, we will have no problem continuing support for the servers and the generation of new content to keep players coming back for more
Legal grey area, I suppose, whether backing a project falls under a (pre)-sales contract or general contractual law. Any EU regulation or national law that was made after the kickstarter campaign finished in 2018 doesn’t apply to this case, as laws usually don’t work retroactively.
Irrelevant by EU law.
If it’s even implied that a specific sale-methodology is used then this is to be upheld. It’s a binding legal aspect as payment method is a fundamental reason for acquisition of a product.
This is extremely tightly managed comparatively to other things, like actual content of the product.
I did.
And they clearly state that the only risk is a lack of buy-in.
LE was wildly successful. Despite that it fails.
That tells us mismanegement happened and would’ve happened no matter the amount of people paying.
Because let’s be clear-cut here: EHG used more money then they saw they were getting.
They expanded their company beyond their means.
So this paragraph simply is bullshit in the first place. Company does shit and hence customer has to forfeit legal rights? Cry me a river, shut down that pile of trash if you can’t manage basics of a business… because that is the basics.
No… not even remotely ‘gray’.
This is written directly into the law. It is stated directly related to crowdfunding.
To be exact crowdfunding is split into 4 different causes. Those are:
To be explicit here: Last Epoch’s crowdfunding is a Rewards-based crowdfunding.
Rewards-based crowdfunding under EU law is stated to be a exchange of goods and hence applicable to all sales-related laws, including the contractual binding laws of a advertisment. The crowdfunding page is the first legally binding contract between customer and company in the EU.
If we want to get specifically into the part which it would take action we hence need to get into the ‘Misleading business practices’ under EU laws.
Those state that any ‘deceptive, dishonest, or fraudulent actions by a business that deceive consumers, causing them to make purchasing decisions they otherwise wouldn’t have made.’
Take note of the last part here especially, that’s very very important: ‘causing them to make purchasing decisions they otherwise wouldn’t have made’.
Which means in reality that from the moment the kickstarter happened up to the reveal of a potential expansion which needs to be paid for happens a customer buy under the premise that any and all content will be delivered for free solely by paying the shelf-price.
This has already been defended under EU law repeatedly and hence strongly ingrained under customer protection laws.
If you change your product - especially pricing - in a manner where extra costs apply to a customer which were explicitly stated not to happen then you as a company are not allowed to demand them from the customers paying in formerly.
You got hence 2 options legally without getting into a major shit-show with the EU… not individuals… the EU directly:
If we wanna be especially specific then the respective law applying is found inside the ‘Consumer Rights Directive 2011/83/EU’.
This one went into action to apply to all contracts After June 13 2014 which clearly includes the kickstarter of EHG hence.
The exact document can be found here as a whole: Directive 2011/83/EU of the European Parliament and of the Council of 25 October 2011 on consumer rights, amending Council Directive 93/13/EEC and Directive 1999/44/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council and repealing Council Directive 85/577/EEC and Directive 97/7/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council (Text with EEA relevance)
Article 5 describes that before a binding contract is allowed the trader (EHG) has to provide the consumer (us) with several points or the contract is always null and void.
All relevant points are included there, if you look at Article 6 it only gets more narrow and is applicable since it’s a ‘distant or off-premise contract’.
I’m specifically taking Article 5 here to keep it more simplistic, Article 6 is the same + extra, and the one which actually applies under EU law.
This includes:
This is Article 5, which directly include the kickstarter hence.
Article 6 relates to the right of withdrawal for ‘distance and off-premise contracts’ (hence anything not face-to-face.)
I just don’t wanna go into the myriad of failed things EHG already has broken the law with, like a distinct reminder of the existence of a legal guarantee of conformity for goods… which is a mandatory aspect under ‘Article 6/l’. And a few more in there simply not done.
As for the further information requirements those are stated in Directive ‘2006/123/EC’ and Directive ‘2000/31/EC’ as well… so this is only the start and not the end of what has to be upheld. At least as long as the newer directive isn’t directly clashing, then the newer one is to be upheld first and foremost.
Further onward:
Under ‘Article 18/2’ it is stated that the trader (EHG) has to fulfill his obligation of full delivery of the product within 30 days from the conclusion of the contract.
This is specifically a reminder of the contractually obligated end-time of their roadmap for release, stating that they would release in 2020. Hence since no distinct date in 2020 was given it means February 2021 would’ve been the last applicable timeframe.
This timeframe is allowed to be changed once only and we as customers were allowed to terminate the contract hence at that time. Or for any later customer upon missing the contractual obligations according to their own timelines given to the customer related to release and the state of release.
Under ‘Article 18/3’ it is also stated that upon termination based on delivery the trader (EHG) has to return without undue delay all sums paid under the contract (the shelf price + all MTX are the case here as the MTX are based upon the core product)
Also under ‘Article 18/4’ it is stated that the termination under ‘Article 18/2’ can lead to further remedies provided to the consumer (us) which is applicable further related to national law.
I think it’s fairly clear-cut to see which solely the ammendment which has gone into action in June 13 2014 already applies to several breaches of contract related to what EHG provided.
Their kickstarter is a contractual obligation which has never been changed for anyone. Depending on later situations whenever one applies the consumer (us) is immediately allowed to call for said breach of contract as the contract has no applicable end-term and hence is perpetual until the service is ceased.
The current potential breach of contract is not abiding by the statement that beyond the base price of the product no mandatory further costs will be included to experience the full scale of the product.
This is very important to understand as seemingly neither EHG nor Krafton realize what they’re doing is not only pissing off their consumers but also steering towards a breach of contract which would cost them likely more then they would even make from the whole console release + the expansion in total.
Any consumer can write directly to the ‘ECC’ (link here: European Consumer Centres Network - ECC Net - European Commission ) to enforce their rights. You don’t need to have any form of legal insurance in the EU, those work for free to ensure consumer rights are upheld. And if they suddenly get several E-Mails about Last Epoch breaching contractual obligations… well… I guess then it wouldn’t bode well for either Krafton, EHG or the game’s further existence. Many have reached into the hot coals and while some managed to get away scott-free far far more have been heavily burned or completely incinerated at times.
They doubbled down on this after they were out of their kickstarter phase so this isn’t important at all.
The sources I found were even more aspirational in language than the kickstarter page.
That’s aspirational language, not a guarantee.
I didn’t find this. Crowdfunding explicitly isn’t part of any directive predating 2020. Discussions predate 2020 for sure.
I wonder if anyone reads this before supporting anything on Kickstarter:
Is the Fangs of Astarkarn out yet? It was announced in Aug 23 & was expected in 2024 (scroll down to the “when” bit).
Yup, absolutely nothing has been fixed, all the bugs from the past few years still exist & there have been absolutely zero QoL changes.
Yes, that’s the “lack of buy in” they talk about. People, quite literally, didn’t “buy in” as much as they thought/hoped.
When did that get signed into law? 'Cause if it’s the dates on the site you linked (2020), then that was after LE’s Kickstarter (2018). As the superlative legal mind that you are, could you let us know if it’s possible to be prosecuted for actions taken before something gets signed into law?
I would provide a pic with the relevant section highlighted, but apparently Imgur.com doesn’t want to work for UK people.
Yeah, but that doesn’t mean that the Kickstarter Ts & Cs can override a person’s legal rights under law.
Half a year seems too little, based on what Judd said. I’d expect at least 3-4 seasons before the expansion, so at least a year.
They’ll try to adjust balance in the meantime, add the missing skills, add the last 2 chapters.
It’s quite likely the expansion will address other issues LE has, like endgame variety.
This is highly unlikely based on the simple premise that the pay model has already changed from what’s stated in the kickstarter and this didn’t happen.
The kickstarter states:
The planned pay model for Last Epoch upon release is for the game to be free to all players until level 20 with restrictions on player interaction in order to deter spamming. To advance beyond level 20, players may spend $14.99 to unlock the rest of the game’s content and full social features! These restrictions on free players will go a long way to deter spam and botting accounts, which will help keep the game’s community and economy healthy. This one-time payment will be all that a player will have to spend to have the complete Last Epoch experience and be on the same footing as other players.
This is not the current pay model. Not only is there no free client for players under level 20, the price is twice the stated one.
And yet, no one batted an eye or tried to sue them.
My loyalty and financial support for the Last Epoch developers were based entirely on the guarantee that all future expansions would be free. A change to this policy under the new ownership is unacceptable and invalidates the initial premise of my support. They are obligated to communicate with their new bosses and refund every transaction made by supporters. I invested in a game’s promise, not in a corporate investment portfolio.
Is an non-expensive addition a problem? Or will ye prefer the death of the game to satisfy thy pride?