Why is Lagon still unfixed after years?

General
82

Ignoring the fact that Lagon appears in the campaign, so you had an early part of the game that had this, if you were to introduce boss X with dance and one shot mechanics before Lagon, then players would complaint that boss X needed fixing because there is no dance and one shot mechanics before that one.
Either you start doing that right away with the first mob, or you have to start at some point. Lagon’s as good a place as any.

There are more fights like that, but they appear after Lagon. But that’s no different from PoE’s Sirus/Elder/etc. Bosses are supposed to be hard. Maybe the problem isn’t that Lagon is hard (which it really isn’t) but rather that the bosses before that aren’t.

But as I said before, if you increase the difficulty of earlier bosses, then we’ll get players complaining that boss X is too hard. And if you don’t make any boss hard, then the game becomes D3… sorry, meant to say boring.

I do sort of agree with you there. I think we should get retries for bosses, both in monos and in dungeons. Not without penalty, that just means you can try it over and over again, but having a few tries before having to start over would be good.

83

It is but the mindnumbing ease of the campaign and the normal monos aren’t enough to make people ready for the corruption grind if they have little to none hack and slash experience.

There is no inconsistence. Iirc they said they don’t want to telegraph everything and have other queues to show the enemy is up to something. That’s a question for @AndrewTilley most likely because we will possibly never see the day when he is out of quotes and informations on topics :smiley: .

I think everything that can oneshot should have a telegraph and that’s it. I play the game on autopilot for a long time now but to my knowledge this is what we have right now.

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84

I’m not sure I’d call ot inconsistent design rather than the game having different ways of communicating with the player that a bad thing is about to happen & that they need to do something about it. Personally I like the variety & wouldn’t want there to be only one type of telegraph, but I can see how it could be frustrating/confusing until one gets used to it.

Those were a few that I could remember off the top of my head while getting ready for work, I’m sure there’s more.

So is variety.

Yeah, that’s fair & I don’t think it’s unreasonable for the normal monos to have a few portals to give the player several attempts at the boss 'cause that’s where one should be learning the fights.

You can even skip bits of the campaign in mp by getting someone to give you the relevant portals then you pick up the quests. Don’t like Lagon but want to do chapter 9? Ask someone to give you a lift to the zone after Lagon then carry on from there.

In the same way I think was his point.

Yes, though if you have a very glass cannon build then there’s more that can 9ne shot you.

85

We need a oneshot telegraph and no skill issues telegraph :stuck_out_tongue:

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86

This. And this is why I say the fight is based upon character skill set. A character who’s skill set has issues hitting (or simply doesn’t hit) makes a long fight much longer. “Just don’t get hit”, for a fight that may last four times as long and I’m laughing again. It’s doable. I found it hard. I didn’t enjoy it.

87

Coming back to this, I took my latest character through the left hand path. It is a much smoother ride.
This is not because it’s necessarily much easier, it just doesn’t have lagon.

Ironically, the boss of the stolen lance, god hunter argentus, has the same set of design notes as lagon but the fight is much, much better to play. These are the similarities I remember:
He uses highly damaging burn attacks which are only telegraphed through his animations. He uses other highly damaging attacks with clear ground templates.
He has three phases with the second phase introducing adds and the third combining for more chaos. The adds do their own major attacks with telegraphs to further cut out useable area.
In the third phase he brings on a one hit kill mechanic with a much larger attack area than the lagon strikes, but it is telegraphed via a ground template so despite being much bigger it is less stressful to avoid.
Throughout the fight there are persistent attacks from the three ballistae that are low to moderate damage but threaten mobility, and these attack consistently, way more often than any lagon attack.

So this fight is, design wise, the same fight as lagon. It’s just not shit. I don’t know if it’s because this is a level 70 area and lagon is 75, and scaling issues break it. Maybe it turns to custard in empowered, I haven’t got there yet.
But for standard mono playthrough, this path is far superior.

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88

I hate one shots. But one shots would even be fine if the health and everything wouldn’t completely reset. Sure, you like a hard game, then use the options for it like solo self found, hardcore, whatever option. But not everyone likes it that way.
I just alt F4 after trying this for an hour or so plus redoing my gear thrice.

Just not for me. And that would have been fine if the game were advertised like this. But I was having fun and suddenly I hit a massive difficulty spike I can’t get my head around because I honestly don’t have the reaction time.
So uninstall it is. Which is sad, because I actually quite enjoy the story.

89

His eye beam and moon strike have quite long telegraphs. Lagon’s eye turns red before he starts either ability. The moon strike charges about 1.3 to 1.5 seconds. Doesn’t require split second reaction time.

The staircases down to his barrier tentacles are safe zones from the beam. I don’t know if that is intended, but if not, it’s only fair that his skills have hitbox issues, too :slight_smile:

Maybe this helps?

90

This is the problem with the campaign difficulty curve more than the Lagon fight itself. It is so easy all the way up to that fight and then BAM you get hit with a massively harder fight than anything that came before it (if you haven’t done the fight before).

I would leave the fight and go run some Monolith echoes for some levels before trying it again, or watch some video guides. You really shouldn’t have to do this though.

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91

I cant belive its not fixed yet :smiley:
It either works… or not!

92

Returning to this question I missed. It blocks campaign progression. This is a problem for new players that 1) are just playing the game (solo) and are not reading all about the game on the internet, 2) don’t even know what mono’s are by this point in the game. As a new player, when I got to the end of time, I just assumed that the game was in early access and getting dumped into the end of time at that point was because the game was unfinished due to being in early access. So what I was expecting was that the progression was 1) campaign, 2) end game activities which I would be introduced to and walked through (if said activities existed). Because that is what these games do.

For some reason I give a shit about new players, probably because I think it’s in EHGs best interest to have a great new player experience. Smoothing new player experience is an example of where more experienced player simply shouldn’t be listened to. They likely don’t remember their first time experience and it’s just human nature for those who have gone before to tell the new folks to toughen up. Except, this isn’t life, this is a video game. One that, ideally, makes the developers wealthy beyond their dreams, who then have more time and resources to make the game even better.

I still find it funny that there is push back on this topic. Smoothing out rough spots is in everyone’s best interest, and yet in every game I’ve ever followed there is a section of the forum population that seem to want argue about every single, “this is rough, should smooth it a bit”, topic that comes up. Especially one that the developers have already spent time trying to improve (somewhat unsuccessfully based upon how this topic hasn’t died).

But keep fighting that good fight, fuck those n00bs! Educate yourselves plebians!

Circling back to the character skills set versus player skill set conversation. A little mental exercise. A player, named Alpaca, with his new-to-the-game level of player skill, will fail one in ten skill checks. Playing character A, Alpaca will kill boss Lagoon in 29 skill checks. Character A is pretty beefy, so only a sub-set of skills checks will one shot that character. Alpaca completes the encounter the first time through, feeling pretty good about himself for beating a tough fight.

Alpaca’s next play through he’s playing a minion horde build that tries to stay out of combat (not tough). Because of game play issues (targeting) and being a minion build, this time the Lagoon fight takes 91 skill checks. Alpaca takes a break after quite a bit, bruised, but not bowed. He will return to fight again… but how many new players have Alpaca’s plucky fortitude, I wonder?

My opinion continues to firmly be that this is primarily a game pacing and game defect issue, not a player skill issue.

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93

You jest, but at what point is that a valid response to someone struggling with a part of the game?

If a player can’t work out how to cope with Lagon’s very well telegraphed abilities, how will they cope with the first mono? That requires someone to read that the boss is immune until they destroy the soul things around the edge!

Yes, but what if someone thinks there’s a rough spot & you don’t? What if, actually, you quite like that “rough spot” (and there are some which are quite nice, ladies! :wink:) because it challenges you just a teensy bit more than the rest of the game did & you enjoy being stretched a little (ladies!) but for them it’s a telegraph or a DoT pool too far & they just can’t cope with it!!!

Where should the line be drawn? Skill & understanding are Gausian distributions, there’s always going to be someone with a lower skill than the person currently complaining & they deserve their participation medal to be able to complete the hardest stuff too right?

That is certainly part of it, yes. But it’s not all of it.

94

It’s the developer’s job to decide all that. They are the ones with tools, expertise and the financial imperative to do so. And I sincerely believe that they never look at a single post as a deciding factor in how they build their game.

LONG WINDED BORING BULLSHIT, DON’T LOOK!

As the developer, they are (ideally) qualified to take in player input as an aggregate, market trends, game design and ideas about what kind of game they want to play to make decisions on what should be changed, and how, and what shouldn’t be changed, and why.

As the small, vocal, hyper-educated and hyper-invested players that come to these forums y’all are very qualified to talk about how stuff works, whether something is working and game balance. By definition, you are unable to give feedback from the new player perspective. It’s great that experienced players try to help new players through rough spots. It’s kind to say, “yeah, that’s a bit rough, pay attention to X and keep at it, you’ll get it”. It’s the height of dickery to say, “git gud”.

It’s the new players behavior as an aggregate (where do players quit? what do new players say on the forum), that informs the dev whether their design is working as intended. The primary purpose of, “as intended”, is, “is this fun”. Somethings being challenging in a game is fun. Something being obscure or just flat out broken, is probably not going to be fun. Only new players are ‘qualified’ to provide this sort of input (as veterans have already figured out how to work around it, and their opinions are biased).

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95

No. I seriously and honestly want to see the rest of the story.
So thank you for your suggestion but that won’t fix it.

Yes, there are people playing games for the story, too :smile:

96

Oh, I have a horde, and I seriously quit over this.

97

Hi Kissing, Some quick feeback - Have played 100 hours on Hardcore. Game is exceptionally easy all the way up to Lagon at 75+ which then just 1 shots you. Game would be better if the difficulty was upped during the main game and less 1 shot stuff that is not that fun for hardcore players. What happened to the maschosist mode?

98

Further to this I was maxed resists, 45% armour, 2k health and 900 endurance threshold.

99

Nice to see this year old thread bumped just so we can confirm that Lagon is indeed working just fine now.

100

Well then, you pretty much summed up the fact that it hasn’t been fixed, have you not? are you reading what you typed here? actually reading it? Stop speaking on behalf of the comp[any and stop gaslighting and running to the dev’s defense with almost everything you say, see your entire post history. All this will achieve is it will make people sick of you and result in further irritation against the company.

The OP experienced an issue then came here to report on it, why would you think that telling someone that their issue doesn’t really exist is somehow helpful or will magically make it so? because you said so? do you have the power to speak it out of existence?

I have every faith that you will try to run in and reply to this with the same tactics as ussuall … defend, obscure, deflect and more gaslighting … go on then. Can’t stand fanbois hooked on digital crack.

101

I just cleared this fight naked(as in, no items equipped) as an acolyte at level 50
Literally no idea how anyone struggles on this