Where can I find more Harbinger's eyes?

General
22

You know there is a section between “ignoring” and “blindly doing what somebody suggests”.
So I don’t think EHG ignores certain playertypes. They just try to come up with things that most sides are happy with.

Also what they are doing, they are doing because in addition to making the fight slightly easier, they introducing a harder version as an addition, so it makes the “nerf” of regualr abberoth less impactful, because there is another hard fight to gauge your skill/build.

There will always be people on both camps. And I still think that having 10 tries right when unlockign the fight is extremely generous. Especially considering, the point in time, when you unlock the fight (300 corruption) is far below the point that would be an equivialent corruption level/difficulty in a regualr timeline.

Regular Abberoth is compareable with ~500 corruption. People trying Abberoth instantly when unlocked are doomed anyway, if they do not play a hyperoptimized build and/or are highyl skilled players.

They just tweakign the numbers of the fight itself. Acquisition of Harbigner Eye’s is not touched as far as we know, but they confirmed the fight is slightly easier, but not that much.

With how it sounds I honestly don’t think that what you complainted about will be chagned that much anyway.

Abberoth and regular monolith are very different though. While it is 1 eye for 1 try, the acqusition fo a Abberoth Eye is much, much easier to anythign comapreable in other games for Pinnacle boss fights. So while it is “One Portal”, it is very generous.

For Monoliths I still believe that the whole one-try and if you fail you forgoe potential rewards is a very good solution, because you don’t lose something, but you just lose the chance for potential loot/rewards.

I really think that LE has a very good ratio of build enabling uniques and just “high stat budget uniques” gated behind hard content and long grinds.

The amount of strictly build enabling uniques for these higher top tier endgame content is very very small. Many of the builds that would go for some of these build enablign uniques can use a very similar or almost identical build while farming these.

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23

It really depends on your build type honestly. I was able to do it with a totem build that was barely handling the 300c i needed to hit to get there. I was too squishy vs a screen full of mobs. But 1v1 boss fights were way more skill based. I failed 6 times total, tried 2 times then upgraded some gear then did 4 more attempts and managed to win cause I learned the fight a bit better.

Where as my holy trail character who does 450c struggled wayyyy more.

I imagine if you have really low damage uptime skill like a melee skill the fight is going to be terrible, but thats sorta just the sticks of melee and its the same in every single game. Dpsing exarch as melee sucks so bad because he constantly hits you with pbaoe or low range shotgunning projectiles.

So far the nerfs are almost non existent from the way they are explaining it. However there is iirc global changes to ward decay for boss ward, that alone will help the weaker builds massively. As abby has a metric ton of boss ward, more then any other encounter iirc.

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24

I’m sure they are looking at their metrics & they know just as well as you do that that statement has a rather silly amount of hyperbole mixed in. But it’s not like it’s the first or last… Just because you rage quit at Abberoth doesn’t mean the vast majority of others do/did.

And almost exclusively that’s because those builds are designed for clear speed rather than single target & the players are likely bad.

See what I did there?

If only there were a way to acquire those “critical” uniques without doing the fight. Out of curiosity, what uniques are “critical” from Abberoth?

I kinda agree about the whole 6 portals v 1 portal thing, but the rest of your post just turns me off & it will almost exclusively turn EHG off as well (and TBF, they’ve said similar stuff about bad arguments being worse than no arguments).

25

Yep. Demonstrate your immaturity by relying in petty insults for your argument.

26

Sorry, should I have used egregious & unsuportable hyperbole inplace of an argument instead? Or is a pinnacle boss intended to be completable by everyone who plays the game regardless of skill (hence the “the players are likely bad” comment). But thanks for reading the rest of the post, especially the last sentence.

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You have no way of knowing this. I think EHG has told us that most people quit at or before monoliths (I think I remember them saying that?). So, in a purely technical sense, most people quit without finishing Abberoth. But that statement isn’t actually an argument for or against Abberoth being too difficult.

So from there, we get this statement, “of the people that make it to monoliths, some percentage quit after trying Abberroth”. Another point of data; EHG is making the Abberoth fight a little easier in the next patch. Why is that?

Heavy’s opinion is;

But again, that is Heavy’s interpretation of what is happening, EHG haven’t actually said that.

Why are they doing what they are doing? Hopefully its because they take a bunch of different inputs, talk about it for days or weeks with other folks that do this for a living. Throw a bunch of ideas against the wall and go with the one(s) that sound the most fun.

Point 1 of this thread: Imo, you (random forum poster) only get to chastise folks for ‘most people’ when you don’t ‘most people’ yourself. You (Llama) have failed this time.

Point 2: Also, imo, in terms of difficult fights, From Soft has shown the way. I just think ARPG devs are missing the point.

Giving people an easy way to retry a boss fights so that they can improve as players and beat a boss? Good.
Grinding to power up to be able beat a boss? Good.
Making people grind to redo a fight? Bad. Super bad if the grind is boring.

28

They have not direclty said that the nerf and implemention of a new harder version correlate, but they did talk about these fights recently in the podcast/interviews.

If they intention would only to nerf the fight I htink they would have done it earlier.

Highly disagree with this. Especially because the acquisition fo the boss fight is nothing that you specifically only do for the boss fight.
But to acquire entries for the boss fight oyu need to play the regular game. While doing this you can do all sorts of things and farm stuff you want to farm.

Making people work for boss entries is great. Having too much easy access to a boss dimishes the experience of the fight a lot. The accomplishment, especialyl early ond and then once you move to a repeating farm the boss, having these kinds of entry barrier is good to keep everything healthy.

29

Did you notice this word

In this sentence;

And I’m absolutely fine with you disagreeing with me. I expect there are as many opinions on this and other gaming topics as there are people. After all, I violently disagree with almost every opinion you have about these types of games, but I love how thoughtfully and respectfully you present your opinions.

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30

Yes I did, but you can retry, but at a cost, another entry. I would not like having free retries.

Again I think 10 entry keys when unlocking is already a lot. And when you are not a very good player or have a solid build you likely will try to attemtp the boss a bit later than unlocking it, so you would have even more attempts.

EHG specifically said that they got a lot of feedback regarding unlocking the fight rather “earlier” then “later” in terms of character power. So when unlocking it you are not “supposed” to instantly do it.
Maybe they should put a small disclaimer or information in the game what the excepted difficulty of the boss is, so people don’t think just because they can enter, they should already try it.

31

I dont really know if this is true.

This makes sense if we consider say, the economy aspect. Uber items in poe are expensive because ubers are hard, and there is a limited number of entries at any given time and the items are rare. if the entries were free, someone with lots of time and a good boss killer could flood the market, making players feel worse when they finally get there, cause the boss is pointless.

You have infinite tries against a dark soul boss, does that diminish the value of the fight? i think it adds to the appeal honestly.

I dont think this can work strictly in an arpg, but I also dont think making the fight super mega rare accomplishes anything. I think the biggest issue is that iirc harbinger eyes are a 10% drop that gets higher the more rarity you have.

So what happens is the builds that are deleting abby, also farm faster cause they are doing higher corruption, get more abby invites, and its a snowball effect.

I think the way PoE handles their pinnacle fights make way more sense. You kill 28 map bosses, you can fight eater/exarch, you do some maps, you get to fight maven.(this one has some risk vs reward rng stuff to it as you can get more or less splinters, but I think you get min 1.)

You know the shaper guardians always drop a fragment etc.

I think you could easily have harbingers drop an eye after say 3 kills. And have it be set. So every 3 kills, you get an eye. Rather then “well your build sucks and can only handle 300c, so you get like a 20% chance to drop an eye, but that guy doin 1k, he gets em like 70% of the time”(or whatever)

like i will say, other then my 10 “free” attempts I got from the story progression, I didnt drop more then 1 other harbinger eye in the time I played the season lol I just didnt have high corruption or a need to farm a lot of bosses.

32

I obviously strongly agree with this take.

I don’t hate D4’s approach - pay the price to get on the ride. Ride as many times as you like (pay armor repair costs if necessary) until you win and you have to pay to get on the ride again.

33

But they fight is not super duber rare in LE. Just a few echoes in 300-500 corruption if you have a decent echo web.

They scale with corruption with a hard cap at ~600corruption for 75% drop chance.
I don’t know the minimum drop, but that would be at 100c ,which is very unlikely to be farmed at anyway.

At 300+ C the chance is already significantly higher than 10% anyway.

Also in general I really think comparing all of this to PoE is not really good. Because the major difference between LE and PoE is, that boss entries are tradeable in PoE.

I really like boss entries not being tradeable in LE, because this doesn’t put a pure market value on the entries and you don’t evne have to think about doing it yourself or selling them. If you can’t or don’t want to do them for whatever reason the only chance to get the rewards from them would be MG or a friend gifting you some of the rewards.

If you buidl only can handle 300c and you can’t get much higher you are very likely doomed for Abberoth anyway.

If you didn’t drop any more than 1 eye you most defintiely have not played any higher endgame. They are really no rare drops. They easily get to 50%+ drop chance at like 400~ corruption.

34

Your right, I didnt do higher end game, my build killed abby at 300c, and I never went higher, I think corruption is destroying the game currently its design space.

its one thing for the ground drops to be buffed, but right now the name of the game is “corruption is never bad”

We cant live in a world where the devs deliver us undercooked skills that dont get to sit at 500c for free, then have the devs go “well the game is balanced around like 300-500c tops” meanwhile if you want to actually progress you need to go higher.

I think its bad design because the entire time you are “progressing” the story there is no rng. its 1:1 per harbinger kill. I legit thought they just always dropped an eye. No, thats just in the story, you actually get less loot from harbingers after the story, quirky how that works isnt it?

this would be like the first time you build stability the boss is 100%, but after that its a chance. that would be a weird design choice right?

Its just imo not well designed and progression towards the pinnacle fight should be a bar that moves up like stability not a random drop.

I dont care how many harbingers you make someone kill, but there needs to be progress being made at every kill, so that you feel like you are working towards the pinnacle boss which is its intended idea or how they pitched. A “Goal for builds” you can even make it a bar that rewards more for higher corruption kills, just remove the randomness from it.

I think LE needs to figure out otherways to present players with progression and advancement that isnt “corruption go up” and “get drop rng = good” We have so much rng in the game already if I want to play slot machine games id just go to the casino. Thats what loot is for, rng, why is my boss attempts rng too lol

35

To be fair, Llama never said the vast majority of players didn’t quit at Aby. Just that one person quitting at Aby doesn’t mean most did. All he called out was the rather obvious hyperbole in Aschere’s argument.

Minimum drop chance is 25%.

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36

Agree, technically he didn’t say a majority of players quit at Aby. As pointed out, technically, we know that most players don’t even get to Abberoth. So, technically, I could say, “most players don’t get past the Abberoth fight”, and that would be very misleading.

We also know that EHG is reducing the difficulty of the fight. You don’t make a fight easier if you feel like it’s just fine. My guess is that their review of player metrics supported that decision. Which implies that a significant percentage of players did stop after that fight. So, to some extent, EHG agrees with Aschere.

I rolled my eyes at Aschere’s posts. But now I’m also rolling my eyes at the contortions others are going to to avoid saying, “ya, EHG thought the fight was too hard”.

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37

If only u can buy these on bazar or the new woven echo?
If only you can make a bossing char and ignore echoes and profit from drops.

Sadly LE don’t treat MG seriously and we can’t have nice things in bazar or make a profit(gold from them)

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38

EHG has a very clear stance on that.

You should choose your Item Faction based on how you want to acquire your gear (items).

They do not want a “full economy” like it is the case in PoE, where basically everything is tradeable. Because it will put an economic prize on things.

MG is no auction house in the common sense, it is only for items (the main gear pieces of your character). It is not meant for accessign content.

You can agree or disagree with it, but I really like it this way, because the decision to play the game mode is severely less important to make “the optimal play”. CoF is very strong, stronger in certain aspects than MG. But MG still has its benefits.

On top of that, even if they would want to make items like keys, Woven Echoes or Harbigner’s Eye tradeable, they would need to do fundamental changes to the backend, because right now you cannot trade/gift unmodifiable items.

So even if you don’t like how EHG treats MG, I do think they do take it very seriously. But they don’t want it to become something many people would like it to be.

Surely it still needs improvement and they constantly updated MG and will probably continue to do so.

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39

Not disagreeing with you, just pointing out that this is not really true. You could trade/gift set items (which will become modifiable items in 1.2, but aren’t yet) and you can still trade/gift quest uniques, which are also unmodifiable.

I think the distinction is simply gear items (and idols, if you don’t consider idols as part of gear).

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I meant static unodifiable items. So items that are always the same

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41

Actually we have.
From the overall data from roughly 2 decades of the genre overall we know that the majority of players never make it out of the campaign.
But those are also the people not staying long enough to have any meaningful effect, they don’t provide beyond shelf-price.

For those the question ‘how do I catch them properly to be engaged longer?’ is the question. Which clearly is qualitative campaign improvements.

Then we have those making it beyond the campaign, still a substantial amount of players. But a large chunk of them simply doesn’t make it to Aberroth at all, hence the progression towards him causes them to move away.

For those the question is on how to make the end-game more engaging long-term to keep them.

And then we have a fairly small-scale amount of people actually able to tackle Aberroth, which gradually becomes a miniscule amount… but still a important one.

For those more variety rather then a single unobtainable obstacle is important, as well as properly balancing access with ability level (which is not good currently) as well as rewards.

Beyond we got the min-max group, a very miniscule amount of people but also important, very much so. Those are the long-term players already engaged in the game.

The question for them is ‘How to keep em engaged?’ because you absolutely don’t want to loose those despite being the smallest amount of the overall playerbase. They’re the heart of the community. Basically all major content creators making your game known, all people doing third party content supporting your game and the majority of people interacting socially are in this group.

The biggest thing is to see which part needs the most work and causes the biggest long-term issues. In my opinion it’s keeping the already engaged players engaged (since the game offers little) as well as ensuring that the game has a chance to reel potential long-term gamers in (campaign quality). The middle is on a lower priority simply since the amount of people which would be reeled in but leave because of it are rather small in comparison. But not neglicible, hence something to think of in the future when the most important stuff is handled.

In a game which forces you to repeat their content a limitation of access is mandatory, either for the content itself or the rewards.

It’s been shown that reducing rewards is the more severe option and hence access is restricted instead.

Simple as that, yep.

It is. As little as we as players enjoy it… the alternative currently available is simply worse.
Until a overall better system for a solution is found. But that’s still lacking and would only be experimental at best.

It does, as you mentioned. Rarity is the name of the game.

If you can acquire 20 rare uniques rather then 1 you’ll not deem them valuable, hence the boss itself looses value in our perception.

So both acquisition and reward rate are mandatory to balance. And acquisition causes less issues then making a boss drop one of the wanted items only every 50 times… and the rare ones every 1000.
You can reduce access limitations though, it’s possible. But for that we need well balanced content (which we don’t have yet) and long-lasting fights.

See Monster Hunter for examples on how it would be done in a successful way.

Yes, that’s viable, and the full RNG aspect there is annoying. I agree with that 100%

Yes, corruption is a overall negative mechanic, I agree with that.
It’s more a placeholder for something proper then a core aspect which should stay.

Because as you said… the hindrance to progress is basically capped beyond corruption but to progress it you need to handle the content you’re capped out from by getting access through progressing.
It’s nonsense.

Yes, and that’s a positive, not a negative.

EHGs handling there is not good in my eyes at least. I see more issues then solved ones with that stance.