Well yeah but my point is to not introduce systems that contribute to that. It’s going to happen regardless, so adding another layer of difficulty that widens that gap even more is just not good game design.
There needs to be mechanics that reward dedication and grinding, but not at the cost of casual players.
It is better to “warn” EHG before they implement something I think is bad, then after.
As far as something to achieve. Reaching 100 is not hard, just play high exp/low risk levels, especially in group. The 1% wanted something to challenge, there should be a leaderboard where their actual builds are being tested. Almost everyone that reach high leevel in PoE cheesed.
Almost anyone who play PoE at high level know NEVER to do hard content until they hit the next level safe point (unless they want to lose progress), And this is unfun. You do not want a design the discourage people from doing hard risky stuff (especially in SC).
The MOST important part of XP penalty has nothing of the “git gud”, " not everyone need to get to 1000%" stuff. The key is people feel bad/frastated at losing potiential hours, days of progress. The pain is worse the less time you have for gaming.
No way I will be playing a game if I died, I will lose 4 days of progress with chance to lose even more. I don’t think I am alone.
The reaching lvl100 isn’t even the main point.
but I have another argment., I doubt anyone will quit LE if theer is no XP penalty, but there will be potinential people who will not play LE if theer is a harsh time base penalty. We know the XP lost is heavily contested topic on poE, & izt will be if PoE implemented this.
Just have a leaderboard so top players can compete by killing monsters. It salso more meaningful, SInce arpg is how good you are at killing monster, not how far you can reach a certain level, which most people do by cheesing.
As someone who has played PoE since Beta for thousands and thousands of hours, I’ve seen the XP penalty thing brought up maybe twice? I think maybe you have a little bit of confirmation bias. Since Legacy league when I really started paying attention, I have not seen a single popular upvoted thread on the subreddit discussing the XP penalty, which is surprising because Reddit tends to complain about anything and everything. It’s a pretty good sampling of the player base as well.
In terms of actually hitting 100, there are a lot of strategies. Maybe if you’re playing HC or racing you wouldn’t do any hard content until you hit the next level, but in SC as someone who has hit 100 a couple of times, I did it farming ultra juiced maps, simulacrum, or 100% deli t16s. You take on what your build can handle.
Also if you’re at the point where dying once loses you hours or days worth of grinding, you’re already far past any casual player in terms of progress. Taking PoE for example, the XP penalty only gets really punishing at around 97-98. At that point, you’ve already progressed further than 99% of people, so what’s the problem with dying exactly? If you’re there you’ve already spent weeks of grinding, are you telling me you’ll grind for weeks but then quit if you lose a couple of hours of progress? What situation have you been in where you’ve literally lost 4 days of progress? This is also not taking into account that a high level is not a necessity in games like LE or PoE. It is an achievement. Losing XP doesn’t take anything away from your character other than time. If you’re a casual player that XP can be earned back in a small amount of time because you’re likely at a low enough level XP gain to still be good.
I don’t think anyone deserves by default to get max or even almost max level. It’s an achievement reserved for people who dedicate themselves to the grind. In almost every single case in any other ARPG, the difference between those last few levels is totally negligible and not at all required to do all the content in the game.
Sorry man, I already said it has litle to do with “git gud”. I do not want to repeat the same thing to everyone.
Please read before making statements base on misrepresentation
Also the XP penalty has been bought up twice is objectively false. ALl you need to do is to see the forum first page.
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-forum/feedback
Ive seen it brought up multiple times but it isnt brought up a lot as its simply seen almost as a flaw in your playstyle - if you are complaining you dont make progress you are basically admitting you are dying regularly enough to not get anywhere, which is where people will respond with things like ‘nice build’ or ‘get good’ implying you are bad at the game or have a bad character or both. Some are completely open with it though it depends where its posted
I didnt get my first 100 until after playing for 3 years. I was also stuck at 93/94 from death/mistakes etc until I decided one league I would go all the way solo and didnt realise the grind but I got used to it and do it every league now
The worst part is having to ignore much of the game due to fear of XP loss at really high levels. End game boss ready?, rippy map or even the constant threat of D/C or freeze ups killing you in maps, the only solution I found is to make a boss killer character who does all the dirty work - but you are always on edge doing zones at 98.7 or something
Personally dont care if XP loss is in LE or not, it largely depends on EHG stance on level 100 characters. GGG didnt want you to hit 100 without major effort whereas Crate Grim Dawn devs thought 100 should be for everyone and not a challenge…there was XP loss in Grim Dawn on death
I think it’s likely to be somewhere inbetween the two, some grinding but not a major ballache.
Required effort to reach level 100 is NOT same as XP Loss penalty. Its almost impossible to die in Diablo 2 (at least until the version I played 1.09), very few people made it to level 99. Because its grindy. They can make LE super grindy I do not care.
You can make it hard to reach level cap WITHOUT impose TIME base penalty, Personally I do not see how reaching cap level as an acheivement, a fest that can be acheived by grind , exp booster, with alot of cheesing.
in PoE, all you can AFK group (even with bad gears) farm T15 Beachhead for a few days to hit 100. Its probably a good idea you AFK otherwise you lag the game. Only 1-2 players need to do the killing. Just pay 15chaos per run or whatever it cost now or have the map as ROTA.
But these are not fun, & game should be about fun. I want a game when exp is a natural progress while taking on content rather than a “farm”.
Now being top 100 of leaderboard, Thats an acheivement as you actually need to play well, have a balance build with optimal gears.
ALSO a penalty that ONLY work for a few level is a bad design. There is no 2 ways about it.
I keep hearding the same arguments. You have to make sure you have a good build that doesn’t die. No shT Sherlock. But a having a good balance build should be meaningful across the gameplay, not just level 96-99. Good design make sure the players play well, all the time.
If xou reach level 00, you should be punished for dying as well. The penalty shouldn’t stop at max level.
Think about it, if we go by this logic, & Then a person who play until level 90 would never need to have a good balance build, since death is meaningless until late 90s. How is that a good design?
There is a reson 99.9% of games do not have such design. Universally, action games punish you for playing badly at every point of gameplay, not the last few optional levels.
Anyway, the KEY point, & I have repeated by 1000x is not about reaching level 100
It is about “not losing progress”. TIME is a premium & time base penalty that is more than over 30min (milage varies) is dealbreaker for many people, & many of tehse pople do not care about reaching max level. WE just do not like to lose progress they worked hard for.
If you say loosing progress is bad then you should hate the monolith punishment for getting killed. You get set back some echos and depending on your build you are in for a 30-60 min setback.
Loosing XP isn’t loosing progress if:
Because if that’s the keypoint for you XP penalty is a non issue because you don’t actualy loose something outside of XP. You don’t get weaker you simply need more time for a level up but then again this would take time and and loosing time is a dealbreaker for you…
I’m confused!
People do no like to lose what they already worked for, especially if they put alot of time. It doesn’t have to be just level, it applies to many thing iRL.
Its not that confusing. Its not as much as about gaining what you can acheive (level 100 for instance), it about not losing what you already gain (XP loss).
If your PC crush & the work you done for past 2 hours are gone (because you forgot to save, its your fault for sure but its an example), you will be frustrated as well.
I give another analogy. Just imagine there is a job that you can do in weekend for say 100bucks. The 100 bucks is nice for you.
Then someone called you, & said job is not need. You feel sad, but its not as bad as you haven’t done any work.
Now imagine another scenero. You started doing the work. Halfway through the work, They decide they do not want the work, say sorry, & do not not get paid. You will be frustrated as you already put in the work. (thats will be like losing progress from XP lost)
Nutshell
Not losing what you already earn (xp) != Not gaining what you hope for (level XX), but haven’t earn it.
You can make reaching level 100 hard, you can make it exclusive (say only first to 100 can be level 100, after which level 99cap for next 1000, 98cap for next 20000) I don’t really care.
You can make level to 1000 hard without making players lose massive time in progress.
Seems like a hot topic, this.
My question to those in favor of XP death penalty:
How do you feel about loosing XP by dying because of a server disconnect / lag?
This is the reason I think XP penalty is unfair: the game does not discriminate between your ‘poor gamaplay’, a sudden doorbell/phonecall you need to get, slow computer lagging behind the server/ graphics, game bugs, etc. Plenty of reasons for people to feel being unfarily punished. BTW: Same goes for progress (like a server disconnect during the last Uber lab fight with Izarro, or your last portal to the Cortex… 
).
In short: I believe the game should “own its mistakes” (disconnectx, bugs, etc.), just as much as the players should own theirs (mindlessly rushing mobs, AFK playing while watching YT, etc.).
On trading i disagree.
Just make some items untradable/soulbound…
I love trading, its also a way to interact with friends and other people. I wouldnt even mind not being able to trade with other people other then my friends.
For me the fun is that if my friend and i play together and i have a useless drop again, he might use it (or the other way around).
On XP loss i disagree aswell (sorry)
Sometimes i hate losing XP in POE.
At the same time it creates a skill gap. If you have a balanced character in terms of Defence and offensive you will reach level 100. Now iam actually excited leveling up despite playing soft core. Its a really important mechanic imo what keeps softcore interesting.
Level 100 would be a bigger achievement aswell with XP loss in LE.
Now it is just like, oke if you grind enough hours you will get a level 100 one day.
BS One-shots
Agreed.
btw i have 2500 hours for what its worth.
I dont think people left POE because of XP loss, some are just burnt out on the game, others think its changing course to much towards casuals. Another reason i see a lot is the speed being to fast and power creep and the list goes on… Some people might however, i saw enough people on forums disliking XP loss. It made me wonder why GGG didnt make an Uber soft core league or something were XP loss is off. Also in the Uber soft core they could put a mechanic were progress faster trough the story after your first character in a new league.
I think some casual players that are not willing or having less time to play the game would be happy with that.
I see a lot of POE players in here bragging about their experience and hours and all trying to impose their POE views on this game. You want POE mechanics? Then stick to POE. Don’t turn LE into POE.
I disagree with the EXP penalty and I hope it is not implemented in this game. IF you want a death EXP penalty, then implement it in hardcore. It has no place in softcore. There is already a death penalty in monolith. That is good enough.
Most gamers have a life and families (wives, husbands, children) outside gaming. Respect their time. They are not streamers who do this crap for a living and have 12 hours a day to play games. In my opinion its elitists who want to pull the ladder up behind them that clamor for this sort of thing. Just so they can call themselves the top players. Soon after, they start asking for the game to be nerfed this way and balanced that way around them and their tastes, quickly alienating a huge swath of the player base. Last Epoch welcomes players of all skill levels. It should remain so.
I don’t want to see this game turn into a 1% elitist trainwreck like POE. Don’t POE my LE.
Thats why i said for what its worth. It was more in a sarcastic way because i dont think the hours have anything to do with it 
By the way, i have a family aswell and a job, dont pretend you know how others lives are.
Why do people talk about POE a lot? Because its one of the most played games in the genre? So we are not allowed to compare or say which bad or good experiences weve had of it? That would be stupid. Even the LE devs are using POE as an example Sarne said himself in a post (regarding to procedural maps).
You can learn a lot by looking at the top competitors in the genre.
Iam not really getting why you are getting so mad.
You get it a bit wrong with all your examples let’s make them more fitting because you only blame others in them 
! A PC crash and I haven’t saved my work? My bad! If there is a job on the we for 100 bucks and I don’t get there. My bad! If I die in LE 99.9% of the time my fault.
Nutshell:
Loosing XP isn’t fun but in almost all cases my bad if it happens. On the other side you loose nothing because you own nothing because everything ,even your toons arent your property what makes playing games from your point of view totaly obsolate. Yeah just nitpicking here :D.
Level 100 is already hard to get but removing the opportuinity to reach level 100 is better then havind XP loss for my own errors? Well no thx!
I had a lvl 9x pala in D2 on hardcore and died due a DC. I never played any HC chars since then. Loosing ~15-30 min of playtime compared to loosing hundrets of hours is totaly okay.
outside of game bugs that all a you issue and not a games issue. If my doorbell rings and I don’t wait for someone I don’t open up. Phonecall? I call back. Bad hardware? Spend some money. Bugs are problematic but they hit everyone the same way and will be fixed at some point in time.
The intresting thing is: Where is the middleground? If the XP penalty isn#t that high and you loose a % ammount of your gold on top of it to make things less harsh is this an idea? No penalty for playing like a braindead fool should simply be punished. Even bad builds and “Mimimi I want to play the game my way and play my tank char without maxed defences and crit avoidence is useless so I don’t skill it but i die somehow mimimi!” should be punished. people who simply don’t want to get it should be punished as well as ( watch out elitist alert 
) people who don’t have the ability to play well for whatever reason.
I don’t think a game is out there to make it easier for some people and harder for others with the same outcome. For Example I don’t play RTS games because I’m bad at it and don’t know how to improve. it frustrates me so I stay away from it. I simply don’t play games that frustrate me :D.
Right now we are in a nice spot to make suggestions and I would love oppinions on the topic how people want stuff and why because right now it might be hard to make up new stuff why XP penaltys are bad because we got it already :D. So how do people who are against XP loss want to have things handled?
My post was not meant as a reply to you. If it indeed was, then I did it wrong. I did not even read your original post. As for “pretending” to know family life, you are just being plain dishonest. No serious family person has 12 hours to game. POE is currently successful due to a lack of serious competition over many years. Said competition is on the Horizon with D4 and LE if they get this right. Bottom line is many things made POE successful, its a hard sell that “exp penalty” was one of them. Either way, I was not responding to your post. My post was just my general reaction to the crap I have seen in this thread.
These kinds of comments really burn me up. The words “should be punished” should not be anywhere near a game we play for recreation. There is plenty enough punishment dealing with everyday life. I don’t need nor want it in my “off-time”. If EGH decides they want to recognize people who play better/more then reward them for their efforts. Do NOT punish others because they are not as dedicated.
WTF? 2 people I know play about 10h a day and they have children… but they maybe play even more :D. Each one of them is very serious about their family and would go batshit crazy if someone approched them with such an attitude :D. Just sayin… even gamers can be very serious family persons.
With a crap post? You assume a looot of stuff in your post. XP loss on death is a thing back from the 80s when you played your “fantasy action games” on a piece of paper and with dice rolls because reviving always trook some XP depending on how fast it was done. That’s NO PoE mechanic… they just adopted it like many other games.
If you diagree with the XP penalty what do you want? No penalty at all? Gold loss? Item drops? The penalty in monolith ONLY works for monolith so it’s only good for monolith. That’s only a part of the game.
Most gamers have families and jobs and stuff? I have no actual numbers on that but most srious players have been the kids and not the parents at least if you leave out handy games almost everyone playes in some form.
It’s fine if you think thats an issue elitists brought up but look at the devs of games with death penelties and you’ll see they are no elitists and still put it in their games and suffer the most from it. Even Mike died in 2 dev streams (sorry Mike ) and seems to have no problems with death penelties.
I could go on but who cares. TL:DR: What do you want? only the echo setback in ONE gamemode? That’s it? no other ideas that might help?
What is burning you up? If someone does something that deservs punishment and get it served? There is NO game that isn’t driven by this. Every time you fail in a game is a punishment and makes it even sweeter when you achived something.
Noone is punishing you because of your dedication or the lack of it, you might (because it’s not here yet :D) for the messes you create in an enviorment that has no drawbacks for you outside of playing even more another time. People who made errors should not have ANY benefits over players who put in a lot of work, time and effort into their play.
We don’t know what the devs will come up with… maybe you shatter a random item on death and there is no xp loss? Who knows? I know nothing ^^.
Without Moralizing, I find this hard to believe. That a person can have a job, children, a spouse and have 10 hours a day to game. Unless they are a professional streamer or have a certain job that in someway allows them to do this, and that is a very tiny minority which makes my point. Should the game be balanced around your two friends at the expense of thousands who play this game?
What do I want? I want the DEVS to stick to their vision and not make changes under pressure from POE players. POE is not for everyone. LE is fine the way it is now, and is moving in the right direction.
I am not asking for anything, I am against making this POE v2. Death penalties exist in every game. That’s the whole point of video games, dying to be punished. From super mario all the way to tombraider. Death has consequences.
I am huge lover of souls games that have big punishments for death. However, EXP penalty, esp as it is implemented in POE with alot of BS mechanics backing it up, is unacceptable to me. What is so wrong with the way the game is set up right now? I don’t get it. Should every ARPG become POE going forward? I personally don’t think POE is all that and cannot wait for it to be dethroned.
If an ARPG had a save/load functionality, believe me, I would not be complaining about XP death penalties 
Thank you for an honest reply. You are right, that we should focus on solutions rather than complaints (and negative remarks towards other posters, which I see a lot in this thread, unfortunately - this is usally the case when a topic is discussed that generated intense feelings in people…).
My solution is to keep the game “XP penalty free”, and to those who really want to be punished for their mistakes I say: go right ahead. punish yourself as much as you like. How about, when you die, you deny yourself computer access for one hour? Or kick yourself in the shin five times. Be creative with your self imposed punishement, just don’t force the rest of the player base to join in your fun, please
One feeling I get from your post, @Irrelevant, is that if you don’t like something (a game mechanic), the simple solution is to stay away from the game. Of course, this is right. But… all of us in these forums are here because we really want to play an ARPG that suits our preferences (whether you’re a masochist craving that punisment, or a casual that wants to play the game with even more casual friends, to have a good time). Since we are all here, it means we are not playing that ideal game right now, and have our hopes on LE to be(come) that game. Those who feel the game is just right atm, oppose all interference and suggestions from those who feel LE is almost their ideal game. Of course. In the end, it’s up to the devs to choose which ideal game they will make and who of us will stick with it and who will leave, unsatified and disappointed.
Let’s all try to be civil about it, while we are here, OK?
Whatever the penalty ends up being, it has to be uniform for all players and all situations. I have never once died to lag or a disconnect in this game, but if I did I’d just accept it as a consequence of playing an online game.
It’s a first world problem to have if the rest of the game is good.